Heinrich Kemmler ld?
- Thread starter KhazModan
- Start date
-
The masquerade of murder returns! A new game of Vampires Amongst Us has begun. Unmask the killers, trust no one, and try to survive the night. Find out more and sign up now!
Skittelz1981
Varghulf
Lol, never noticed that..... im inclined to say ld9 based in him being a special character, and fluffwise a dondada necromancer that rolls on his own.
But 2pages say ld 8.... i wouldnt know
But 2pages say ld 8.... i wouldnt know
I say LD 9, if only because that makes it possible to actually include Kemmler and Krell in a Vampire Counts army. Otherwise Krell would have the higher LD, and have to be the army general, which would make the army illegal as your general isn't using the Lore of the Vampires.
By that logic I can only field Wight kings in the same army as a Vampire lord since he is the only one that have a higher ld that the wights and that doesn´t sound right to me
Not true
General is the WIZARDmodel with highest ld.
Wight king and krell arent wizards so can't be generals
That is right. Wight Kings cannot be taken in Vampire Counts armies unless your general is a Vampire Lord or Heinrich Kemmler.
Undead Legions solves all this.
No, the general is the model with the highest LD.
This model must ALSO be a wizard, and must ALSO use the Lore of the Vampires.
BRB says to use AB rules when there is a conflict. So VC generals have to be the wizard with the highest LD. Then said wizard also has to know LoV. However, End Times says to ignore this rule, which means that it goes back to BRB for general if you are using the update.
Patrunkenphat7
Grave Guard
So are you suggesting that you cannot take a Wight King unless you have a Vampire Lord as general? I have played many games with Master Necro and Wight King, and so have thousands of other people.
I know you make a point of drawing everything to the point of strictly RAW.
So i kindly suggest you read the rules for your general in the VC book again.
The english version, if it happens you have one of the other versions available.
Yes. I never noticed him at 9 and I bet GW would go off of the profile page. It should also be in the BRB if you want more verification.
However, if he is in a unit with a wk or krell, it would make him LD 9; would that make IP 9 since things like War Banner can affect a general's LD/IP also.
The book says:
"Your general must be a Wizard"
This means that the highest LD character in your army, must be a wizard. If he's not the highest LD character, then he can't be your general. This doesn't change the way you select your general (choosing the model with the highest LD) it simply adds further criteria that must be satisified.
"If he is able to choose a spell lore, he must use the lore of the Vampires"
I don't think this part is contentious at all, so I'm going to leave it alone.
To summarise, ALL of the following must be true when selecting the army general.
1 - Must be the character with the highest LD.
2 - Must be a wizard.
3 - Must use Lore of the Vampires (if able to).
And those thousands of people are doing it wrong.
I don't think anyone can resonably claim the RAW correct one-and-only way to rule this.
GW has stated two seperate rules, but has made no attempt to explain how they should work when combined.
You could combine both rules in various ways and then apply them.
You could let the wizard rule replace the leadership rule whenever an army list result in a conflict.
You could require both rules to be satisfied for an army list to be valid.
It is not FAQ'ed. It is not clear when or how the rules are applied.
As you mentioned Lore of Vampire is mantatory where possible. But apparently this rule only apply after army creation because it does not prevent you from picking wizard's hat for your to-be general. So it's not as black and white as you try to portray it.
Fortunately, there is an easy way around all this. Undead Legion
GW has stated two seperate rules, but has made no attempt to explain how they should work when combined.
You could combine both rules in various ways and then apply them.
You could let the wizard rule replace the leadership rule whenever an army list result in a conflict.
You could require both rules to be satisfied for an army list to be valid.
It is not FAQ'ed. It is not clear when or how the rules are applied.
As you mentioned Lore of Vampire is mantatory where possible. But apparently this rule only apply after army creation because it does not prevent you from picking wizard's hat for your to-be general. So it's not as black and white as you try to portray it.
Fortunately, there is an easy way around all this. Undead Legion
Skittelz1981
Varghulf
"Your general must be a wizard" meaning a general can only be a necromancer or a vampire
"The character with highest leadership is your general" meaning that idd the Wight King should be General if taken with necromancers BUT, he is not a wizard so cannot be the general. Therefore the necromancer takes the place of general regardless of the fact that a Wight King is higher leadership. He is the second highest leaderhip and a wizard.
Since our generals can only be wizards, the necromancer is the next in line with highest leadership.
Youre viewing it really RAW @Blutsauger but youre not reading it in the context.
The general rule for General is that the highest Ld is the general. But VC has another special rule added to it. That the general Must be a wizard.
-Now this can go for your interpretation Blutsauger, that idd a WK can never be fielded unless with a VL (which is retarded)
-or you view it as that nowhere in AB or Faq is it mentioned that the highest leadership must be a general and if he is not a wizard then the model can not be used unless a higher leadership is available.
Nowhere does it say that a MN cannot be the general when a Wightking is included. WK has higher Ld but Necro is the wizard.
So, according to VC AB, our general by defailt is always the wizard, superceding the Leadershiprule which comes in after: Vamplord and MN? then the vamplord is auto-general for he has the highest leadership within the wizard-general-rule
For Kemmler: It could be just ld8 like a MN...
Btw @Blutsauger, if GW designed Kemmler to be Ld8 then there is your ultimate proof (aside from what i mentioned above) that Highest leadership is not the general if its not a wizard. Kemmler and Krell belong together.
I say the right interpretation is for VC:
Your general must be a wizard with the Highest leadership. going off on brb-rule: General is highest Ld in army and the AB overruling rule: General must be a wizard.
AB rules always overrule BRB-rules, so you first read General must be wizard. then you read general has highest leadership.
So for VC: Wizard? yes!, highest leadership wizard is general! yes!. Any other non-wizard higher leadership? yes but it doesnt matter coz the general is a wizard first of all
"The character with highest leadership is your general" meaning that idd the Wight King should be General if taken with necromancers BUT, he is not a wizard so cannot be the general. Therefore the necromancer takes the place of general regardless of the fact that a Wight King is higher leadership. He is the second highest leaderhip and a wizard.
Since our generals can only be wizards, the necromancer is the next in line with highest leadership.
Youre viewing it really RAW @Blutsauger but youre not reading it in the context.
The general rule for General is that the highest Ld is the general. But VC has another special rule added to it. That the general Must be a wizard.
-Now this can go for your interpretation Blutsauger, that idd a WK can never be fielded unless with a VL (which is retarded)
-or you view it as that nowhere in AB or Faq is it mentioned that the highest leadership must be a general and if he is not a wizard then the model can not be used unless a higher leadership is available.
Nowhere does it say that a MN cannot be the general when a Wightking is included. WK has higher Ld but Necro is the wizard.
So, according to VC AB, our general by defailt is always the wizard, superceding the Leadershiprule which comes in after: Vamplord and MN? then the vamplord is auto-general for he has the highest leadership within the wizard-general-rule
For Kemmler: It could be just ld8 like a MN...
Btw @Blutsauger, if GW designed Kemmler to be Ld8 then there is your ultimate proof (aside from what i mentioned above) that Highest leadership is not the general if its not a wizard. Kemmler and Krell belong together.
I say the right interpretation is for VC:
Your general must be a wizard with the Highest leadership. going off on brb-rule: General is highest Ld in army and the AB overruling rule: General must be a wizard.
AB rules always overrule BRB-rules, so you first read General must be wizard. then you read general has highest leadership.
So for VC: Wizard? yes!, highest leadership wizard is general! yes!. Any other non-wizard higher leadership? yes but it doesnt matter coz the general is a wizard first of all
Last edited:
I agree with Skittelz here.
The following is just as an example of how you can take RAW to the extreme in the other direction.
Pick 3 characters for your army:
1 Wight King Ld 9
1 Master Necromancer Ld 8
1 Vampire, Ld 7
Now you could go say:
Rule 1: Core Rules say Highest Leadership must be general -> Wight King must be the general
Rule 2: Army Rules say General must be wizard -> Master Necromancer or Vampire must be the general.
Since the rules are in conflict, Army Book overrules the Core Rules. So Rule 1 is disregarded.
So now you could pick your Ld 7 Vampire as general !
My example is just an illustration of playing with RAW. If you take the rules to the letter, and try apply some logic method to it, you can end up with very interesting results.
The following is just as an example of how you can take RAW to the extreme in the other direction.
Pick 3 characters for your army:
1 Wight King Ld 9
1 Master Necromancer Ld 8
1 Vampire, Ld 7
Now you could go say:
Rule 1: Core Rules say Highest Leadership must be general -> Wight King must be the general
Rule 2: Army Rules say General must be wizard -> Master Necromancer or Vampire must be the general.
Since the rules are in conflict, Army Book overrules the Core Rules. So Rule 1 is disregarded.
So now you could pick your Ld 7 Vampire as general !
My example is just an illustration of playing with RAW. If you take the rules to the letter, and try apply some logic method to it, you can end up with very interesting results.
If you have the MN, he would have to be the general because AB says Wizard with highest LD, not just a wizard.
Skittelz1981
Varghulf
Smogg was just pointing out how absurd RAW can be if you dont take context in regards.
He doesnt think the vamp should idd be the general. Its just an example of how you can read RAW and then end up in strange situations that are wrong.
He doesnt think the vamp should idd be the general. Its just an example of how you can read RAW and then end up in strange situations that are wrong.
But the rules aren't in conflict, you've just built an illegal army. Your general must be the character who has the highest LD AND is a wizard AND is using the LoV if possible.
If any of those things aren't true, then your army is illegal.
But as said, the Undead Legions makes the argument moot.
But I have built a valid army. Now where I need to select general the rules are in conflict!
As seen from the FAQ below the rules for selecting general are applied after constructing the army. See FAQ below.. and so on…
(My point is since GW never spelled out what it means for rules to be in conflict or when you should apply the rules for selecting the general. We could go on forever insisting that each our own view is the holy grail of truth)
As I mentioned, the RAW view where I can pick a baby vamp as general was just to demonstrate how you can do RAW ruling to the silly degree if you like. I agree with Skittelz and I noticed that the only place where GW mentions the two rules combined is in the FAQ:
Q: If a Vampire or Vampire Lord is unable to choose the Lore of the
Vampires as their spell lore (due to the Wizarding Hat for example)
but is still the Wizard with the highest Leadership in the army, must
he still be the army’s General? (p26)
A: Yes.
Seeing that they actually write "Wizard with the highest leadership" is good enough for me to recommend that this is how it makes sense to select the general.
And yes. I do agree the whole debate is kind of irellevant now where you can just create an Undead Legion army.
As seen from the FAQ below the rules for selecting general are applied after constructing the army. See FAQ below.. and so on…
(My point is since GW never spelled out what it means for rules to be in conflict or when you should apply the rules for selecting the general. We could go on forever insisting that each our own view is the holy grail of truth)
As I mentioned, the RAW view where I can pick a baby vamp as general was just to demonstrate how you can do RAW ruling to the silly degree if you like. I agree with Skittelz and I noticed that the only place where GW mentions the two rules combined is in the FAQ:
Q: If a Vampire or Vampire Lord is unable to choose the Lore of the
Vampires as their spell lore (due to the Wizarding Hat for example)
but is still the Wizard with the highest Leadership in the army, must
he still be the army’s General? (p26)
A: Yes.
Seeing that they actually write "Wizard with the highest leadership" is good enough for me to recommend that this is how it makes sense to select the general.
And yes. I do agree the whole debate is kind of irellevant now where you can just create an Undead Legion army.
Skittelz1981
Varghulf
Sorry @Blutsauger, but this time youre straight wrong.
You take brb rule first but you shouldnt.
AB-rule goes first: general must be wizard. this is regardless of leadershipvalues of any model.
Once you determined the amount of wizards in the army the leadership-rule from brb comes into play: highest ld must be general; so among the wizards eligible to be general, the one with the highest leadershipvalue will be the general. if there are 2 wizzkids with the same value then its a free choice by the player.
WK can never be general, period. henceforth their leadershipvalue does not matter when choosing a general among the wizards.
VC is the ONLY book i think that works like this. not sure about TK how their general rule is.
I dont find it an obsolete issue. regular 8th ed. is what i play and my entire meta as well.
I dont know anybody ready to play endtimes, nor will that happen in the near future.
The Kemmler issue can not be settled since its simply unknown wether its 8 or 9. Tbh, i think its ld8, simply because its written twice whereas ld9 is only mentioned once. fluffwise it also makes sense and it streamlines with the Master Necros and WightKings. being a named special character doesnt mean they have higher leadership
You take brb rule first but you shouldnt.
AB-rule goes first: general must be wizard. this is regardless of leadershipvalues of any model.
Once you determined the amount of wizards in the army the leadership-rule from brb comes into play: highest ld must be general; so among the wizards eligible to be general, the one with the highest leadershipvalue will be the general. if there are 2 wizzkids with the same value then its a free choice by the player.
WK can never be general, period. henceforth their leadershipvalue does not matter when choosing a general among the wizards.
VC is the ONLY book i think that works like this. not sure about TK how their general rule is.
I dont find it an obsolete issue. regular 8th ed. is what i play and my entire meta as well.
I dont know anybody ready to play endtimes, nor will that happen in the near future.
The Kemmler issue can not be settled since its simply unknown wether its 8 or 9. Tbh, i think its ld8, simply because its written twice whereas ld9 is only mentioned once. fluffwise it also makes sense and it streamlines with the Master Necros and WightKings. being a named special character doesnt mean they have higher leadership
RAW, Blutsauger is actually right. Yes, army book takes priority when there's a conflict, but there isn't actually a conflict as it's possible to meet both requirements.
However, I don't think that was the intention and it's meant to be the wizard with the highest leadership as, otherwise, it indirectly limits options when creating an army, whereas intended restrictions are explicitly stated. Such a ruling would prevent armies being led by Kemmler and Krell and there's no way that's intended.
---
As to the original question about Kemmler, I'm inclined to agree with Skittelz: Kemmler on Ld8 would match Master Necros, mimicking Krell's Ld9 matching Wight Kings.
Edit: Not to mention the fact that Kemmler's troop type is listed as "Infantry (Special Character, Master Necromancer)."
However, I don't think that was the intention and it's meant to be the wizard with the highest leadership as, otherwise, it indirectly limits options when creating an army, whereas intended restrictions are explicitly stated. Such a ruling would prevent armies being led by Kemmler and Krell and there's no way that's intended.
---
As to the original question about Kemmler, I'm inclined to agree with Skittelz: Kemmler on Ld8 would match Master Necros, mimicking Krell's Ld9 matching Wight Kings.
Edit: Not to mention the fact that Kemmler's troop type is listed as "Infantry (Special Character, Master Necromancer)."
Skittelz1981
Varghulf
There is no conflict.
There is our AB that states our general MUST be a wizard. so this disregards the leasership rule. the leadership comes in after, selecting the wizard with highest leadership that MUST be the general.
Therefore a WK can always be fielded even if he has a higher leadership than the general.
There is our AB that states our general MUST be a wizard. so this disregards the leasership rule. the leadership comes in after, selecting the wizard with highest leadership that MUST be the general.
Therefore a WK can always be fielded even if he has a higher leadership than the general.