Help! High Elf Player beat me 6 times in a row

[Touraant]

So me and a friend meet every other Sunday to play games of Warhammer or Warhammer 40k. In the last 6 times we've played fantasy he's won playing his High Elves.

This is his usual list:
Teclis, the Loremaster (Lore of Life)
Mage (Lore of Fire)
50 Lothern Sea Guard(Teclis goes here)
2 Bolt Throwers
20 Sword master
Rest of the 3000 Pts change up here

My usual list:
Vampire Lord
MOTBA, Forbidden Lore, Lord of the Dead, Blood Drinker, Walach's Bloody Hauberk, Black Periapt.
Or Count Mannfred
Necro in corpse cart (balefire)
60 Skeletons Spears (Banner of Endless Nightmare)
this part of the 3000 Pts change up a bit here
there's 50 GG in the collection
30 BK's
5 wraiths (usually take a vamp with spectral form with these guys so they can march)
100 Zombies

Any help or suggestion on tactics and unit choice would be much appreciated.

Thxs Touraant

 

[Forge]

take advantage of your hero and lord choices imo.

Characters in the VC army tend to win games when coupled with the right special units.

The grave guard are clutch, i would keep them but drop them to like 35ish equip them with banner of the barrows and great weapons.

just take a mannfred and two nifty arcane items. my personal favorite at the moment is crimson gem of lahmia and staff of damnation, but earthing rod and skull staff are nice, book of ashur and skull staff is very nice too.

30 black knights? mmm i would remove 15 if not all of them and replace them with some more heroes a black coach or a couple varghulfs

and drop the corpse cart and necro

I 100% believe you need a vampire thrall with helm of commandment. and if your running Grave guard run a wight king BSB with drakenhoff, im suprised you dont have a BSB in a 3000 pt game 0.o!

 

[Grish]

You use Gem of Lahmia? Care to explain why...? Even with 5 wounds, its hard to justify unless you regularly get off Summon Undead horde (using 3 dice).

Teclis is very vulnerable to anything. He's T2, no armour. A varghulf that connects with him has a good chance of downing him with one suicide run. So I would include a couple of Varghulfs; they would be vital that he protect teclis. Even if he positions his units to protect Teclis, if you hit both of them into Teclis's unit's flank, they'll wear them down quick (assuming you protect the gulfs from counter charges; Sea Guard won't do much to them).

I would think your Wraiths are vulnerable to HE magic. I'd trade them in, or boost them up so they can take some hits and still engage a fully ranked unit (need a CR of 5/rnd not to crumble, or 4 if near BSB assuming unit they hit has no magic attacks).

 

[Bravo_10]

I heard about the Crimson Gem/Staff of Damnation combo, so I may be able to answer for Forge.

The reasoning behind it is that the Gem can be activated at any point in the Magic Phase. So, you first burn all of your PD on other spells, be it raising things or firing off cool Lore of Death spells with Mannfred. Then, when everyone's out of dice, you use the Crimson Gem and take off 2 wounds from Mannfred. Suddenly, you have 2 PD and your opponent has no DD, and you're holding the Staff of Damnation. Throw 2 dice at it, and it's almost sure to go off.

It's best if you take Isabella, that way you can heal one of those wounds back for free during the upcoming Close Combat phase!

That's what you're going for, right Forge?

 

[Touraant]

Opps!
Forgot to put the battle standard up there.
Usually it's a Wight King BSB (Drakenoff)
The problem with the banner is hes gotten use to it being there, and kits out for it with flaming attacks.
The stuff at and after the grave graud is just what i have on hand not how i field it.
Sorry for the confusion.
the 50 GG are fun in a brick like that tho.
I'm i the process of scratch building a Varghulf and Black Coach.
I've got 15 dire wolfs and 3 bases of spirit hosts on hand as well (forgot that to )

Thxs for all the advise :bowdown:

 

[Grish]

I suppose that you don't get half points for half dead lords it could be ok; but a power stone gives 2 dice and doesn't take 2 wounds. So unless you have a way of recharging those wounds (SUH) then its not worth it IMO. Maybe take a wound per round while trying to cast it or something.

 

[Forge]

I heard about the Crimson Gem/Staff of Damnation combo, so I may be able to answer for Forge.

The reasoning behind it is that the Gem can be activated at any point in the Magic Phase. So, you first burn all of your PD on other spells, be it raising things or firing off cool Lore of Death spells with Mannfred. Then, when everyone's out of dice, you use the Crimson Gem and take off 2 wounds from Mannfred. Suddenly, you have 2 PD and your opponent has no DD, and you're holding the Staff of Damnation. Throw 2 dice at it, and it's almost sure to go off.

It's best if you take Isabella, that way you can heal one of those wounds back for free during the upcoming Close Combat phase!

That's what you're going for, right Forge?

exactly, and i put him in my grave guard unit with the wight king bs with drakkenhoff, banner of the barrows and great weapons, and he utterly wipe people up no matter who the opponent is then squeagies them off in the combat phase haha.

as far as the 50 grave guard go, i think its to many, 35 will never die if supported by just a few casts of IoN. the extra 195 points could be better spent. I only run 27 grave guard and they never die.

 

[Souls Of The Dammned]

With the skeletons, i think you have taken too many. Give the Vampire lord "lord of the dead" and take about 30 skeletons, because in the early stages of the game, you dont have many spells to cast because of them being out of range. In a half decent turn, you could raise about 10 skeletons even with a vampire that doesnt focus on magic. And because you are casting it on 3's and not 4's, they pop up really fast.

 

[Forge]

With the skeletons, i think you have taken too many. Give the Vampire lord "lord of the dead" and take about 30 skeletons, because in the early stages of the game, you dont have many spells to cast because of them being out of range. In a half decent turn, you could raise about 10 skeletons even with a vampire that doesnt focus on magic. And because you are casting it on 3's and not 4's, they pop up really fast.

i believe they are what he takes to fill his minimum core requirement

 

[Cobra7]

I kind of play HE's. Well, I have about a 4k+ army, but honestly I don't like em much. I only got em to get a friend into WHF. Anyway the big thing with Teclis, as mentioned, is no armor or ward. Get him in CC or cast Caress of Laniph/Fate of Bjuna on him and he will crumble.

I do want to caution you about trying to out-magic HE's. Your not likely to win with 2d3 power dice, channeling plus all the other nasty anti-magic stuff they have. Keep in mind they can have 3 dispel scrolls, 2 of which have a 50% chance to remove the spell you were trying to cast.

The local HE player at my hangout doesn't like to play me because unless he gets Lurkers off, he wont win.

Anyway doing some math here.
LSG point wise: LSG with full command not no magic banner is 675 points, if you made a matching unit of ghouls, you would have 83. Point is you could have 2 units of 40 and be able to flank charge him, negate his ranks, and do way more wounds. Fun fact, 1 LSG w/ shield is the same point cost as one GG with GW.
LSG shooting: assuming 5 ranks of 10, thats 35 shots vs ghouls will do 5.83 wounds outside of 12 inches. Fun fact, 35 shots at skellies with 5+ armor do the exact same number of wounds. I stopped taking LSG when I play HE, I stick with Spearmen, S3 shots just don't seem worth it to me.

When I play VC, I like to switch things up sometimes and drop the regen banner for the 4+ WS. Ya it doesn't do much in CC, but it makes my opponents question taking fire banners and weapons.

20 sword masters huh? Thats hard. Most HE's don't take em because they get mowed down by shooting, but they devistate us VC. 31 rerolling S5 attacks is harsh. Best bet here is Crown of Command and/or Speed of Light. When I take SM's I take a magic item that gives them magic attacks, if you don't think your opponent will do that then I suggest useing 5 wraiths. 5 wraiths should kill 8.33 SMs per combat, which should negate his static CR. On a turn you charge you should win by 6 (8 wounds, 1 charge, minus 2 ranks, minus 1 banner). with LD10 and BSB, he will have a 30.8% chance to roll a 4.

I can go on, but pretty much it is my opinion, that if you focus on CC and strategy, you should be able to win. However, your 100 zombies are waisted, you can do better getting ghouls.

 

[Forge]

I kind of play HE's. Well, I have about a 4k+ army, but honestly I don't like em much. I only got em to get a friend into WHF. Anyway the big thing with Teclis, as mentioned, is no armor or ward. Get him in CC or cast Caress of Laniph/Fate of Bjuna on him and he will crumble.

I do want to caution you about trying to out-magic HE's. Your not likely to win with 2d3 power dice, channeling plus all the other nasty anti-magic stuff they have. Keep in mind they can have 3 dispel scrolls, 2 of which have a 50% chance to remove the spell you were trying to cast.

The local HE player at my hangout doesn't like to play me because unless he gets Lurkers off, he wont win.

Anyway doing some math here.
LSG point wise: LSG with full command not no magic banner is 675 points, if you made a matching unit of ghouls, you would have 83. Point is you could have 2 units of 40 and be able to flank charge him, negate his ranks, and do way more wounds. Fun fact, 1 LSG w/ shield is the same point cost as one GG with GW.
LSG shooting: assuming 5 ranks of 10, thats 35 shots vs ghouls will do 5.83 wounds outside of 12 inches. Fun fact, 35 shots at skellies with 5+ armor do the exact same number of wounds. I stopped taking LSG when I play HE, I stick with Spearmen, S3 shots just don't seem worth it to me.

When I play VC, I like to switch things up sometimes and drop the regen banner for the 4+ WS. Ya it doesn't do much in CC, but it makes my opponents question taking fire banners and weapons.

20 sword masters huh? Thats hard. Most HE's don't take em because they get mowed down by shooting, but they devistate us VC. 31 rerolling S5 attacks is harsh. Best bet here is Crown of Command and/or Speed of Light. When I take SM's I take a magic item that gives them magic attacks, if you don't think your opponent will do that then I suggest useing 5 wraiths. 5 wraiths should kill 8.33 SMs per combat, which should negate his static CR. On a turn you charge you should win by 6 (8 wounds, 1 charge, minus 2 ranks, minus 1 banner). with LD10 and BSB, he will have a 30.8% chance to roll a 4.

I can go on, but pretty much it is my opinion, that if you focus on CC and strategy, you should be able to win. However, your 100 zombies are waisted, you can do better getting ghouls.

I tottally over looked that he takes 100 zombies haha. ya thats like 50 ghouls right there. given i think the zombies are probably what are holding up your break points. but if you break off the skeleton unit into a 40 and 20 man unit drop the zombies, add 10 more to the 20 man skelli unit and take 40 ghouls or something like that you would do better.

 

[Balleflass]

Ur list looks like its tailormade to lose against High Elf^^

dont use Corpse Cart. its a waste of point in my opinion since he will have hes Lothern Seaguard and Teclis outside will be 24" inches outside of ur CC most of the time.

Ur black knights are easy VPs when he uses dwellers below and boltthrowers on em if u dont have range/magic defence banner om them.

Use 2 units of 3 wraiths with a Varghulf nearby so u got a scary unit to take out warmachines, monsters, small ranged units and such. makes his army pack itself together into one big target.


Dont use skellies if ur not doing the banner scenario, Ghouls are much better for theyr points IF ur not using any specific defence banner om em which ghouls cant have.

Its kinda a must to have a wight king BSB with drakenhoff in ur GG unit and dont make it any bigger than 40. ive usually never take any bigger than 30. In the start i used 40, but they can take alot of beating even without shields.

change Wallachs with Crown of the Damned since u can reroll LD test with BSB. And field Helm of Commandment, ur GGs will eat thru ANYTHING with that and Banner of Barrows.

Never field Zombies except when u raise em.

Blood Drinker on a Caster vamp? wut

Give Lord extra level.

 

[Wallach]

I have the same problem I find HE's invincible due to their inherent cheesiness, I mean seriously every unit has ASF and they are virtually indestructile. Or it could just be the guy I play only knows how to write cheese lists.

 

[Crovax Accendant Evincar]

I have to agree with the above posts,no offence but with your list you've lost before the game starts,I'd drop the zombies they die pitifully quick to HE I've found ethereals work wonders against HE you just have to be carefull with them,keep them out of his LOS,also I second on cutting down on the gg a unit that size is just wasted points,in your next game see if you can proxy in a black coach they do wonders against the soft elves and will disrupt his magic phase,also I'd go more combat heavy with your lord,trying to go toe to toe with HE in the magic phase is difficult at the best of times and with that little ponce teclis there it's nearly impossible,which brings me toy next point,KILL TECLIS ASAP as suggested vargulfs are the main contender here preferably two if you can manage it,once he's gone the game will be a lot more manageable,if he likes to put him in his seaguard unit he shouldn't be that hard to reach with the varguulfs high movement,just be wary of his fire spells that will negate the regen

Also his units rely on there asf soaybe the corpse cart isn't such a bad idea it's asf bubble could help you but it might be hard to get the miasma through,a healthy dose of van hels will also help with this,be thankful as well that he takes SM over PG I find these far more of a threat as there ward save gives them so much more survivability

Anyway hope the advice helped and good luck mate HE are a pain in the arse can't stand the buggers

 

[Cobra7]

I have the same problem I find HE's invincible due to their inherent cheesiness, I mean seriously every unit has ASF and they are virtually indestructile. Or it could just be the guy I play only knows how to write cheese lists.

Wish respect I don't think the HE's are cheesy. It's kind of like saying VC is cheesy because we never break. They can be, but then any army can be. ASF doesn't make em so. They pay very dearly for their units as my post stated and they lack armor and T. Pretty much they have a good magic and great CC. They also have very limited options as far as troops go. Off hand They can give the sea guard shields and the archers LA, thats it.

 

[Touraant]

Thxs for all the advise
my computer at home is experiencing technical difficulties.
ill post a list I'm going to try next when i get it back up and running.

Touraant

@Cobra7 P.S. you forgetting good shooting and some amazing magic item to choose from
and Teclis is cheesy, irresistible force on any roll of a double and ignore the first miscast each turn pure cheese

 

[Grish]

The only thing really powerful is teclis. He is ridiculous.

 

[Crovax Accendant Evincar]

I wouldn't say high elves are cheesy but you can't deny that the new rules have given them a boost and strange coincidence that the two armies that benefit the most from the new rules ( high elves and skaven) are also in the isle of blood box set,damn Gw lol

Also we might be unbreakable but we crumble very fast,I love the fact that we are Itp it means our units a reliable it's one of our great strengths but also our great weakness that is easy to exploit,I'd say our vamps have taken quite a blow,but I prefer it this way

 

[Cobra7]

@Cobra7 P.S. you forgetting good shooting and some amazing magic item to choose from
and Teclis is cheesy, irresistible force on any roll of a double and ignore the first miscast each turn pure cheese

Not forgetting anything

I said any army can be cheesy, HE's included, Teclis is a bit on the cheesy side I agree. My point is, is just because your playing a HE army, doesn't mean it is cheesy.

Also I love it when HE's bring ton of archers and LSG. 1 archer is 11 points! Ya they have long bows and BS4, but S3! That means that T4 or armor is going to put a major dent in the kills they can make. HE's do not have good shooting, they have passible shooting. DE's have repeater crossbows, fire 2 shots at S4 with -1 armor, WE's have S4 at close range and a farther range. Britonians come with a barracade and are dirt cheep. HE shooting is very expensive and doesn't do as much as you might think. IMO, the only core HE's should bring are spearmen.

You guys need to understand, that while I consider myself a VC player, I do have a 4000 point HE army and I have played it. I know what it's like on the flip side and thus why I'm not worried about them. Yes, ASF is something to be concerned about, but once your past that, they fall easier than out ghouls will.

Also remember a couple things about Teclis, he is 475 points, that means odds are there will be no other lords running around. He is T2, no armor, no ward, no regen. The best he can have is if someone else in his unit has MR. Get him in CC and he is finished, get Lore of Death and he is finished. Worried about IF? yes it will happen, but not very often. If you cast with 3 or 4 dice, odds are not good of doubles. So any spell they need to get off he will need 6 dice, which pretty much is the same as the rest of us needing IF.

Long story short, be wary of the HE's, but do not over estimate them except in CC with PG, SM's or WL's. Those are the only units you need to worry about.

 

[Gladius Rex]

I have a friend who plays HE regularly and we split our games about 50/50. Back when i first started, he use to ROFLSTOMP me, but I have learned over time and here is what I have come up with for HE massacre.

1. You cant out magic them silly Elves, so don't try. Drakenhoff BSBs are all well and good until he gets off that nasty Vauls Unmaking and you watch 125 go down the tube. If you dont field Blood Knights (and it doesnt look like you do), then id go with a WK BSB with Blood Keep. That way, if he does Vauls you with an Irresistable Teclis, you are only out 75 points. The Blood Keep banner will work on all magic, including those pesky fire spells i see he puts on his Elven Mage. If his Teclis goes Lore of Light (and lets hope he doesnt figure this out) then you will certainly be glad you didnt have the Drakenhoff banner there as those ST6 flamming attacks come raining in.

2. Black Coaches. take 2 if you can. They steal power dice in the early rounds and HE magic lists have TONS of power dice. they get em from banners, and Teclis, and the standard 2d6, so they will power up quickly and help deplete the old HE PD pool early on while you are closing the gap on him.

3. Its been said, but Graveguard do wonders. Most HEs are T3 and only 5+ armour. Most also are not using shields for any parry bonus. This means that while you CAN go with greatweapons, against HE I would just stick to HW&S. you still get killing blow on a 6 to wound. The Burrows Banner (as suggested by others) helps even the odds in the WS department. If you want a cheaper way to get the same result, try the Screaming Banner instead. its 10 points less and will cause them to roll 3D6 and take the 2 worst dice when testing against Fear. If they lose Fear, they become WS 1, which is even better than getting the +1. To amplify this, have your Helm of Command Lord also have the Aura of Dark Majesty power. Reduce the HE leadership down one then make their roll suck and you got descent odds of hitting on 2s and only being hit on 5s.

4. Corpse Carts. While I wouldnt put a Necromancer on it, its a waste of Hero Points, having one with Balefire isnt horrible, but honestly, any respectable HE caster is going to laugh at a -1, especially Teclis, so if you field one, use the Lodestone. Its gonna be hard to get any spells off in your own magic phase, but if you can get one off, getting the extra +1 model per cast of IoN helps.

5. Take a Dispel Scroll somewhere. Most HE I see, throw 6 dice per Spell. Teclis is a for sure to do this, because he can ignore the first miscast every turn. A good Dispell Scroll is always handy in case he is not irresistable for some reason. Since there is a second mage, this Dispel scroll will help shut him down as you cross the battlefield. Odds are that his 6 dice +4 is going to be better than your 6 dice +2 or 3 (most likely)

6. Lots of fast units helps get to Teclis. If Teclis is in the Sea Guard and not the Phoenix Guard (where I see him most), then your Black Knights do have some value. Them + a Swiftness Banner for +1 move and keep them unbarded and have them all bee line for Teclis. If Black Knights get there, any BKs in base to base need to use their killing Blow attack on Teclis. One Killing Blow and victory is yours!

Sorry its long but ive spent a long time engineering ways to defeat Teclis, so hope it helps and when ya kill him, tell him Gladius sent ya!

 

[Count Lasombra]

Tell your opponent to stop hiding behind Teclis's skirttails and to fight you w/ a hero of his own.If not maybe a feedback scroll could kill him.HE are hard but far from unbeatable,it's Teclis that really queers the deal.Your foe must be REALLY scared of losing to run him in every single game.

 

[akiro27]

So what's the best way to take out the Sword Masters then? They're definitely a problem for me against HEs. Going first, re-rolling misses, 2 attacks -- they're just monsters at chopping me up before I can start swinging. My opponent runs them as multiple units in 7-wide, 2 rank formations.

I saw the suggestion for ethereal - just toss some Wraiths or summon some Spirit Hosts in front of them, and try to flank them them?

They have strong initiative, so what types of offensive magic are best on them?

-aki

 

[Count Lasombra]

Ethereals are good,A ghoul horde w/ the Hoff banner may be the answer.High numbers of poison attacks will hurt them alot,especially with Vanhel's.
If he's splitting them up it's better for you.You have to overwhelm SM through superior numbers b/c the body count stacks up.Don't let them both get into combat together,charge one w/ the horde and place a redirector on your flank.You'll probably take about 15 woulds which the Hoff may cut down to 8, 36 rerollable poisonous attacks will pwn them good.If you don't break them you will eat them in the subsequent round.
I used to say shadow,but the more I use the lore of vamps,the less I want to use any other lore.Spamming necromancy spells may be your only chance of making what you want happen.

 

[Gladius Rex]

My answer to Swordmaster has typically come in the way of Grave Guard, and I typically keep my Graveguard with HW&S, since they get killing blow regardless and HE are all toughness 3, even Swordmasters, so you can hack em down without the Greatswords with little to no problem.

If you want to get their goat real good, have a Corpse Cart tag along and use a couple PD to try to get ASF on your unit. If you have ASF from the Corpse Cart or a VDM spell, then even if his initiative is higher, he loses the reroll.

Now you might be better off with the Banner of Burrows, and a Lord with the helm of command can be a bit helpful as well, but even with their high leadership scores, you take the Screaming Banner and watch the HE player cringe as he picks up 3 dice to make his leadership instead of 2.

You get that to work on him one time, and he becomes Ld 1, even for one round, and you get ASF and you take away his rerolls, and you will notice that he will never play you again without that damn magical blasted horn that causes all ld test to be passed for that round lol. He also will always try to keep dice back to stop that Corpse Carts ASF radius, which often will let you get other spells off ealier, just dont forget to cast it yourself.

hope it all helps ya skin some elves... cuz i hates me some elves. hurt my soul to buy Island of Blood to get that mini rulebook cuz now i own elves... ick. like roaches.

 

[Squid]

Have you guys been seeing teclis in the 2nd rank where your at? I played a HE player and he had a unit of PG 5 wide with Full Command and 2 heros so he can drop Teclis in the back rank and be protected from CC.