Help me choose between three lists

[estwheadn]

For list 1 I still have 10 points to give a champion to either the black knights or crypt horrors. Which do you guys think?

The differences are subtle. List 2 has an extra spirit host, different banner in the bus and no champion in either the crypt horrors or the black knights. The vampire gets protection from death magic and other direct damage spells at the expense of the -1 to hit for the black knights and wight king.

List 3 exchanges the wight king and a spirit host for a vampire. He's there to give a little added punch to the black knights to make up for losing the -1 to hit and to provide an extra IoN to the unit

LIST 1

++ Vampire Counts - Army Book (2013-4) -V8.8.1. (Standard) (2490pts) ++

+ Lords (545pts) +

Vampire Lord (545pts) [Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Lore of the Vampires, Quickblood, Red Fury, Summon Creatures of the Night, Wizard Level 4]
····Barded Nightmare [Nightmare]
····Magic Items [AB - Book of Arkhan, BRB - Charmed Shield, BRB - Talisman of Preservation, BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard]

+ Heroes (164pts) +

Wight King (164pts) [Lance, Shield]
····Magic Items [AB - Nightshroud, BRB - Ironcurse Icon, BRB - Luckstone]
····Skeletal Steed [Barding, Skeletal Steed]

+ Core (629pts) +

Dire Wolves (40pts) [5x Dire Wolf]

Dire Wolves (40pts) [5x Dire Wolf]

Dire Wolves (40pts) [5x Dire Wolf]

Skeleton Warriors (335pts) [Champion, 60x Skeleton Warrior]
····Standard Bearer [BRB - Banner of Swiftness]

Zombies (174pts) [58x Zombie]

+ Special (927pts) +

Black Knights (320pts)
····10x Black Knight [10x Barding, 10x Lances]
····Standard Bearer [AB - Banner of the Barrows]
····Steed [Skeletal Steed]

Crypt Horrors (304pts) [8x Crypt Horror]

Fell Bats (32pts) [2x Fell Bat]

Fell Bats (32pts) [2x Fell Bat]

Spirit Host (45pts) [Spirt Host]

Vargheists (194pts) [Champion, 4x Vargheist]

+ Rare (225pts) +

Terrorgheist (225pts)


List 2


++ Vampire Counts - Army Book (2013-4) -V8.8.1. (Standard) (2500pts) ++

+ Lords (551pts) +

Vampire Lord (551pts) [Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Lore of the Vampires, Quickblood, Red Fury, Summon Creatures of the Night, Wizard Level 4]
····Hellsteed [Hellsteed]
····Magic Items [AB - Book of Arkhan, BRB - Charmed Shield, BRB - Talisman of Preservation, BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard]

+ Heroes (159pts) +

Wight King (159pts) [Lance, Shield]
····Magic Items [AB - Nightshroud, BRB - Ironcurse Icon]
····Skeletal Steed [Barding, Skeletal Steed]

+ Core (628pts) +

Dire Wolves (50pts) [Champion, 5x Dire Wolf]

Dire Wolves (40pts) [5x Dire Wolf]

Dire Wolves (40pts) [5x Dire Wolf]

Skeleton Warriors (335pts) [Champion, 60x Skeleton Warrior]
····Standard Bearer [BRB - Banner of Swiftness]

Zombies (163pts) [Musician, Standard Bearer, 51x Zombie]

+ Special (937pts) +

Black Knights (285pts)
····10x Black Knight [10x Barding, 10x Lances]
····Standard Bearer [BRB - Lichebone Pennant]
····Steed [Skeletal Steed]

Crypt Horrors (304pts) [8x Crypt Horror]

Fell Bats (32pts) [2x Fell Bat]

Fell Bats (32pts) [2x Fell Bat]

Spirit Host (45pts) [Spirt Host]

Spirit Host (45pts) [Spirt Host]

Vargheists (194pts) [Champion, 4x Vargheist]

+ Rare (225pts) +

Terrorgheist (225pts)

List 3

++ Vampire Counts - Army Book (2013-4) -V8.8.1. (Standard) (2498pts) ++

+ Lords (551pts) +

Vampire Lord (551pts) [Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Lore of the Vampires, Quickblood, Red Fury, Summon Creatures of the Night, Wizard Level 4]
····Hellsteed [Hellsteed]
····Magic Items [AB - Book of Arkhan, BRB - Charmed Shield, BRB - Talisman of Preservation, BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard]

+ Heroes (205pts) +

Vampire (205pts) [Heavy Armour, Lance, Lore of the Vampires, Quickblood, Shield, Wizard Level 1]
····Barded Nightmare [Nightmare]
····Magic Items [AB - Nightshroud]

+ Core (625pts) +

Dire Wolves (50pts) [Champion, 5x Dire Wolf]

Dire Wolves (40pts) [5x Dire Wolf]

Dire Wolves (40pts) [5x Dire Wolf]

Skeleton Warriors (335pts) [Champion, 60x Skeleton Warrior]
····Standard Bearer [BRB - Banner of Swiftness]

Zombies (160pts) [Musician, Standard Bearer, 50x Zombie]

+ Special (892pts) +

Black Knights (285pts)
····10x Black Knight [10x Barding, 10x Lances]
····Standard Bearer [BRB - Lichebone Pennant]
····Steed [Skeletal Steed]

Crypt Horrors (304pts) [8x Crypt Horror]

Fell Bats (32pts) [2x Fell Bat]

Fell Bats (32pts) [2x Fell Bat]

Spirit Host (45pts) [Spirt Host]

Vargheists (194pts) [Champion, 4x Vargheist]

+ Rare (225pts) +

Terrorgheist (225pts)

Created with BattleScribe

 

[Asmodeus]

All three are very similar. And IMO they have same drawbacks.

- Skelly bus. As all characters are in cav, skellies are unsupported. They are better than zombies, but are still under the skill of average infantry of other armies. If you put them into combat, they will bleed CR a lot. Counting on WS2, T3 and parries is like peeking through gloryhole.....
If you want blocker - swap them for few zombies blocks and fill the rest of the points with wolves. I`m not the fan of any skelly unit but some players like them.

Also:

(625pts) +

25pts too much.

(628pts) +

28pts too much.

(629pts) +

29pts too much.
My patience ends if core gets more than 5pts above the neccesary number.

- Only 2 characters - lord and his bodyguard. BK bus is surprisingly quite weak - lack offensive punch with only 2 characters.Lack of champion in BK means, that if some hard combat character will be present, he can challenge you and you have to accept with lord or wight/vampire bodyguard - decreasing CR even further. And thouse builds are not unkillable. No MR and no dispell. Magic will hurt you. Banner of Barrows is overpriced for BK - you get very little attacks from the unit, and you have MV 7. That Swiftness banner should be with the BK.
VL build is interesting - i see, that you have SCoTN. Considered Bat swarms?

-CH....meh for me, but sometimes having anvil is good. I would spend the points on characters or more vargheists.

- Good mobile support. Fellbats, Spirit host, Varghs, TBat. I`m using similar centered around bus and it works.

 

[Archamedius]

All three are very similar. And IMO they have same drawbacks.

- Skelly bus. As all characters are in cav, skellies are unsupported. They are better than zombies, but are still under the skill of average infantry of other armies. If you put them into combat, they will bleed CR a lot. Counting on WS2, T3 and parries is like peeking through gloryhole.....
If you want blocker - swap them for few zombies blocks and fill the rest of the points with wolves. I`m not the fan of any skelly unit but some players like them.

Also:
25pts too much.
28pts too much.
29pts too much.
My patience ends if core gets more than 5pts above the neccesary number.

- Only 2 characters - lord and his bodyguard. BK bus is surprisingly quite weak - lack offensive punch with only 2 characters.Lack of champion in BK means, that if some hard combat character will be present, he can challenge you and you have to accept with lord or wight/vampire bodyguard - decreasing CR even further. And thouse builds are not unkillable. No MR and no dispell. Magic will hurt you. Banner of Barrows is overpriced for BK - you get very little attacks from the unit, and you have MV 7. That Swiftness banner should be with the BK.
VL build is interesting - i see, that you have SCoTN. Considered Bat swarms?

-CH....meh for me, but sometimes having anvil is good. I would spend the points on characters or more vargheists.

- Good mobile support. Fellbats, Spirit host, Varghs, TBat. I`m using similar centered around bus and it works.

Umm....These are 2500 point armies, which means the minimum core requires is 625 points, not 600.

While the Summon Creatures of the night is cute, with only 3 5 man(dog) and 2 fell bat units that it works on, which are suprisingly easy to remove, it feels like wasted points. Still it has potential if you play it right. I think I'd rather see aura of dark magesty and/or beguile on the VL, to help counter Demon Princes and the like. Also a unit champion should be an auto include in the black knights, for reasons mentioned above.

I also agree that the Crypt horrors feel out of place. They don't have a banner, so most objective based tournaments will not allow them to claim objectives, and they are too slow to keep up with the flying/cavalry parts of your list. I think you'd be better served to swap the crypt horrors out for a second terrorgheist (redundancy is a good thing) and more black knights/etc. You become a triple threat, (each terrorgheist and the black knight bus are a threat) and the obvious combos of AoDM with Terrorgheists makes for some good synergy.

This way if you do get charged by a demon prince or something else that will kill your VL, you can safely challenge out on the turn he charges, then reposition your terrorgheists on your subsequent turn and double scream it off, or at least reduce it enough that you can finish it in close combat.

 

[estwheadn]

All three are very similar. And IMO they have same drawbacks.

- Skelly bus. As all characters are in cav, skellies are unsupported. They are better than zombies, but are still under the skill of average infantry of other armies. If you put them into combat, they will bleed CR a lot. Counting on WS2, T3 and parries is like peeking through gloryhole.....
If you want blocker - swap them for few zombies blocks and fill the rest of the points with wolves. I`m not the fan of any skelly unit but some players like them.

This style of list has been working for me that's why they're all more or less the same. Also it's the models I have lol. I find the skeletons with the banner are one of my best units. They march right into my opponents scariest units and hold it up for TURNS. And then if I want to charge some hammer units into the same combat then the skeletons won't bleed as much CR as the zombies will.

Also:
25pts too much.
28pts too much.
29pts too much.
My patience ends if core gets more than 5pts above the neccesary number.

These are 2500pt lists

- Only 2 characters - lord and his bodyguard. BK bus is surprisingly quite weak - lack offensive punch with only 2 characters.Lack of champion in BK means, that if some hard combat character will be present, he can challenge you and you have to accept with lord or wight/vampire bodyguard - decreasing CR even further. And thouse builds are not unkillable. No MR and no dispell. Magic will hurt you. Banner of Barrows is overpriced for BK - you get very little attacks from the unit, and you have MV 7. That Swiftness banner should be with the BK.
VL build is interesting - i see, that you have SCoTN. Considered Bat swarms?

-CH....meh for me, but sometimes having anvil is good. I would spend the points on characters or more vargheists.

- Good mobile support. Fellbats, Spirit host, Varghs, TBat. I`m using similar centered around bus and it works.

I find the wight to be very good in challenges. Usually he holds up an orc warboss for a few rounds until his KB kicks in and takes him out. Especially when he is set up next to the lord and the challenger has to re-roll ward saves. But you are still right the BK bus has been kind of weak for me. I could drop the crypt horrors and wight king for another vampire lord? Also I have considered bat swarms, and I didn't take them because they're not as fast as fell bats.

 

[Asmodeus]

[QUOTEThese are 2500pt lists :tongue:][/QUOTE]Sorry. I`m centered around 2400pts meta recently.

 

[estwheadn]

That's fair most metas are 2400pts I think. Anways so I took I'm taking to heart what you guys are saying about the crypt horrors and my bus so here's a fourth list that has 2 vampire lords in the bus and no crypt horrors:


++ Vampire Counts - Army Book (2013-4) -V8.8.1. (Standard) (2500pts) ++

+ Lords (1002pts) +

Vampire Lord (553pts) [Heavy Armour, Lance, Lore of the Vampires, Quickblood, Red Fury, Shield, Summon Creatures of the Night, Wizard Level 4]
····Barded Nightmare [Nightmare]
····Magic Items [AB - Book of Arkhan, AB - Nightshroud, BRB - Dawnstone, BRB - Ironcurse Icon]

Vampire Lord (449pts) [Aura of Dark Majesty, Beguile, Heavy Armour, Red Fury, Shield, Summon Creatures of the Night, The General of Undeath, Wizard Level 2]
····Magic Items [BRB - Charmed Shield, BRB - Sword of Might, BRB - Talisman of Preservation, BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard]

+ Core (630pts) +

Dire Wolves (40pts) [5x Dire Wolf]

Dire Wolves (40pts) [5x Dire Wolf]

Dire Wolves (40pts) [5x Dire Wolf]

Skeleton Warriors (335pts) [Champion, 60x Skeleton Warrior]
····Standard Bearer [BRB - Banner of Swiftness]

Zombies (175pts) [Musician, Standard Bearer, 55x Zombie]

+ Special (643pts) +

Black Knights (295pts) [Champion]
····10x Black Knight [10x Barding, 10x Lances]
····Standard Bearer [BRB - Lichebone Pennant]
····Steed [Skeletal Steed]

Fell Bats (32pts) [2x Fell Bat]

Fell Bats (32pts) [2x Fell Bat]

Spirit Host (45pts) [Spirt Host]

Spirit Host (45pts) [Spirt Host]

Vargheists (194pts) [Champion, 4x Vargheist]

+ Rare (225pts) +

Terrorgheist (225pts)

Created with BattleScribe

 

[Hellion Nox]

What armies do you usually face?

 

[estwheadn]

Mostly orcs and goblins but I want the list to be playable against other armies as well.

I also face ogres a lot and sometimes empire or dwarves

 

[Asmodeus]

Vampire Lord (449pts) [Aura of Dark Majesty, Beguile, Heavy Armour, Red Fury, Shield, Summon Creatures of the Night, The General of Undeath, Wizard Level 2]
····Magic Items [BRB - Charmed Shield, BRB - Sword of Might, BRB - Talisman of Preservation, BRB - The Other Trickster's Shard]

IMo cosmethic change - charmed shield off, Sword of might off. Ogre blade in.

BK need musican. SR are really helps.

Mostly orcs and goblins but I want the list to be playable against other armies as well.

I also face ogres a lot and sometimes empire or dwarves

Maybe skipping Vargheists and swapping that spirit host for hexwraiths?
No dispell scroll so it is risky, but HW are usefull against ogres and O&G.

 

[estwheadn]

So which of the 4 lists now do you guys think is the best?

List 1: banner of barrows with champion in the bk unit

List 2: extra spirit host, no champion in the bk unit, lichebone pennant

List 3: Vampire instead of wight king, only one spirit host

List 4: dual vampire lords, but no crypt horror unit

 

[Asmodeus]

4th

 

[estwheadn]

I just realized I forgot to put my second vamp lord on a mount How do you guys suggest getting one? I could see zombie musician + iron curse icon + beguile? That gives me enough points for the barded nightmare

 

[Asmodeus]

One spirit host down.