Help with Skaven Round 2

[LordTobiothan]

So I posted a few months back about ways to combat a Skaven army and it got some mixed responses. Well we finally got around to playing (college is a bi*ch), and it went exactly as I was afraid it would.

Nothing could maneuver past his three blocks of 50 slaves except my fliers who were grounded by the storm banner before being blown of the table. Subsequently my options were spend 2-3 turns going around the slave blocks or charge them. Neither option did me any good as the rest of my army got warp lightninged to pieces.

Skaven victory 2700ish > 0

I'm not even sure what I am asking here, I have gone over every unit we have and nothing is fast enough to make it around these chunky blocks (that i can still be shot at while fighting with, because skaven), unless it is something susceptible to the storm banner.

What is the general VC tactics to chew through blocks of slaves or ignore them completely (without flying obviously) and getting to the warp lightning army crusher 9000's?

 

[najo]

Your tactics and deployment are critical to winning any fights where you are dealing with a uphill match up. First, how familiar are you with denied flanks and redirectors? Second, units like varghiests, hexwraiths and terrorgiests can move pass the slaves and get close to the other elements of the skaven you need to kill. Through proper deployment and out maneuvering, you can keep his slave/clan rat units tied up while your elite elements of your army deals with the real threats. I need an idea of your Warhammer experience and familiarity with deployment tricks and moving to advise properly though. How long you've been playing and what other armies do you have experience with playing too.

 

[Seneschal]

Take three twenty model blocks of zombies aside from any bunker you may take and feed them to those slaves.

Consider a death caster to snipe the heck out of the grey seer. He dies, their leadership goes down the tubes.

Leave the ethereals at home when dealing with skaven. I wouldn't take fliers either because of the storm banner. This might be a chance for varghulfs to shine.

What does your opponent normally field? The more we know the better we can help

 

[LordTobiothan]

Your tactics and deployment are critical to winning any fights where you are dealing with a uphill match up. First, how familiar are you with denied flanks and redirectors? Second, units like varghiests, hexwraiths and terrorgiests can move pass the slaves and get close to the other elements of the skaven you need to kill. Through proper deployment and out maneuvering, you can keep his slave/clan rat units tied up while your elite elements of your army deals with the real threats. I need an idea of your Warhammer experience and familiarity with deployment tricks and moving to advise properly though. How long you've been playing and what other armies do you have experience with playing too.

I only get to play once or twice every few months, but I started my warhammer experience with wood elves, so the movement phase is the one I know well. Unfortunately, knowing everything about deployment and movement seems to mean very little when the cannons are in a corner and surrounded by rats that they are allowed to shoot at. Redirecting only works if they are moving in a direction to begin with.

My terrorghiest was dead by turn 2, but he couldn't fit in the small space between the clanrats behind the slaves and the war machines that got every kill in the game anyway so him dying early just denied me the extra handful of wounds his scream did to the slaves.

My hexwraiths got caught up fighting his hellpit with magical attacks upgrade and were killed by the doomwheel in a flank charge on the second round of that combat.

The rest of my army was core, 3 morghast harbingers, 2 morghast archai, a blender lord, a master necro, and a baby vamp on coven throne. The coven throne was one turn away from clearing a slave block alone and overrunning into the clanrats with warlord, and was the last to fall before it was able too.

Only way to fit ghiests is drop the coven throne, or drop a unit of morghasts. I cant imagine they would do any better then the morghasts did considering the storm banner and how squish they are in comparison. I could drop the coven throne but it ended up being the only semi-effective unit I had.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Take three twenty model blocks of zombies aside from any bunker you may take and feed them to those slaves.

Consider a death caster to snipe the heck out of the grey seer. He dies, their leadership goes down the tubes.

Leave the ethereals at home when dealing with skaven. I wouldn't take fliers either because of the storm banner. This might be a chance for varghulfs to shine.

What does your opponent normally field? The more we know the better we can help

My master necro was a death caster, never was able to get a snipe spell off on his seer so that working in the future might have an impact but i hate relying on the least reliable phase of the game.

If i have zombies in his slaves the rest of my army has nowhere to go but behind them to get shot at and wait for the combats to end. The only things behind and to the sides of the slaves was table edge and the rest of his army.

Which consisted of clanrats with weapon team and grey seer, stormvermin with engineer, warlord and weapons team, a hellpit and a doomwheel.

 

[Blutsauger]

Try playing the rulebook scenarios. A dawn attack or watchtower will ruin his day.

EDIT: Failing that, if he wants to play silly games by manipulating slaves and warmachines, then just take a blenderbus and shove it down his throat. A blender lord or two and four or five baby vampires in a big unit of knights (Blood knights are actually tempting here because of their 4++ against ranged attacks) and throw it into his lines with careless abandon.

But seriously, an army like this depends on playing pitched battle style games. If he has to alter his deployment or his idea of 'victory' then his army will fall apart. Use the rulebook scenarios.

 

[estwheadn]

Screaming skull catapults! Mix in some aura of dark majesty and a lvl 4 death caster for effect. Make his cornered up warmachines run off the board. Try to cast doom and darkness on his general to debuff his ld bubble

edit: thought you were running UL because of the marghasts. But if not then The knight bus tactic should do pretty well. Get 2 or 3 red fury vampires in there. Just try to overrun into his general's unit.

Also does warp lightening count as flaming? If not varghulfs will be good. Also if you have the models you can add 2-3 units of 2 fellbats for 32pts each. Grab a level 4 vampire lord with summon creatures. For the price of 6 fellbats and summon creatures (106pts) you will end up with 15 fellbats split into 3 units of 5 with just 1 IoN casting. I also like the idea mentioned about the blood knights for their 4++ against ranged attacks. A unit of 10 should be enough to survive the first turn. After that you should be in combat for the rest of the game.

So 10 blood knights, Blender lord, vampire bsb with red fury and banner of swiftness, maybe another baby vamp with AoDM if you are really serious about crushing anything you charge. Should get you into combat and melt his army once you're their.

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

wind of undeath would be hillarious as you dont need the boosted size for the strength

 

[LordTobiothan]

The blood knight strategy has some merit with the 4+ but it does cost me the majority of the army. All I have left is core points and some chaff after characters.

Would the all out 13 man (10 bks 3 characters) death star eat through an army before losing that few models? They aren't exactly raise able and while they hit hard they do die to basically anything hitting them.

I'm not even sure this leaves room for a level 4 caster, which means one magic phase for him could end it.

Thoughts?

 

[estwheadn]

3 vampires can raise up to 3 blood knights per turn. Its not saying much but with the 4+ to ranged you should only lose half the amount of guys. 2+ armor save is pretty good in combat. Positioning is going to be key for them. You want them to eat through the opponents army but you aren't trying to take on their death stars. A unit of dwarves with great weapons will kill a whole bunch. You'll kill more, first, but still lose some knights. Are you going to just put 3 baby vamps in that unit or are you going to put in a lord?

 

[LordTobiothan]

3 vampires can raise up to 3 blood knights per turn. Its not saying much but with the 4+ to ranged you should only lose half the amount of guys. 2+ armor save is pretty good in combat. Positioning is going to be key for them. You want them to eat through the opponents army but you aren't trying to take on their death stars. A unit of dwarves with great weapons will kill a whole bunch. You'll kill more, first, but still lose some knights. Are you going to just put 3 baby vamps in that unit or are you going to put in a lord?

Without the Lord it is much weaker but I could afford a master necromancer so idk which would be better.

And up to 3 a turn usually results in 1 per turn. His caster will see to that with his +4 to my +1 or at best +2.

 

[Blutsauger]

The blood knight strategy has some merit with the 4+ but it does cost me the majority of the army. All I have left is core points and some chaff after characters.

Would the all out 13 man (10 bks 3 characters) death star eat through an army before losing that few models? They aren't exactly raise able and while they hit hard they do die to basically anything hitting them.

I'm not even sure this leaves room for a level 4 caster, which means one magic phase for him could end it.

Thoughts?

How many points do you play? I was thinking more like 2 Blender lords, 4 baby vamps and around 16 Black Knights.

But once again, the more serious option is to simply play the scenarios as presented in the rulebook. If he has to hunt banners for Blood and Glory, or try and kick Zombies out of a tower for the Watchtower, or risk the chaos of a Dawn Attack scenario, then he's going to be really struggling with his gunline tactic. Failing that, the Screaming Skull catapult suggestion has a lot of merit.

 

[najo]

I've meant to reply sooner but I've been swamped. I forgot about storm banner as the skaven players around here don't use it much.

First off, units to use. Vampire blenders focused on extra attacks and red fury are good. Curse of years is good. It's worth considering a vampire lord with forbidden lore and heavens. Skeleton archers are good. Still swear by hex wraiths and redirectors. I'd run banshees too. Skabscrath could be helpful. Crypt horrors are always good, though if he runs warp fire throwers and other flame attacks, morghasts might be better. If you take morghasts go with harbringers.

General tactics are too rush him and control where the slave units can get to. Concentrate your fire on breaking through one of those shave units by putting curse of years and all your powerful attacks towards it. Over run, then fight behind his lines with your general and hexwraiths. Use screams on appropriate targets. Disrupt his army with heavens.

 

[LordTobiothan]

How many points do you play? I was thinking more like 2 Blender lords, 4 baby vamps and around 16 Black Knights.

But once again, the more serious option is to simply play the scenarios as presented in the rulebook. If he has to hunt banners for Blood and Glory, or try and kick Zombies out of a tower for the Watchtower, or risk the chaos of a Dawn Attack scenario, then he's going to be really struggling with his gunline tactic. Failing that, the Screaming Skull catapult suggestion has a lot of merit.

Bks actually meant blood knights lol black knights get wiped in one turn if focused and blood nights have the 4++ banner to survive the shooting. We play 2500 points btw.

Also as little as I get to play these days I prefer to play regular pitched battles so I just have to find a way to make it work.

edit: since skaven don't have an end times book I won't be using UL.

@najo focusing down one unit of slaves seems a decent idea, but fitting enough units into the combat to ensure a one combat eradication is difficult when trying to get the vamps unit in there. Should I charge them out of the unit? They are unlikely to lose combat and crumble vs the slaves but the unit with the characters of his behind them is more worrying.

Hmm can characters charge out of a unit as a unit? Having my vamps together would apply the crumble once instead of to each of them and give it minus 1 for bsb another minus 1 for the morghasts and I could lose by 3 or 4 and be fine.

 

[najo]

@LordTobiothan I think the key to successfully playing vampire counts is knowing when get charged or charge, moving units around, redirecting properly, tarpitting properly, managing crumble and placing/moving characters. Your idea holds merit. The key to excuting it would be moving up, blocking and redirecting to create a charging lane and then having vampire blenders to charge out of the units into skaven threats behind the slaves. Put together with other tactics I mentioned above should lead to you eventually getting wins in against him.

 

[Blutsauger]

Bks actually meant blood knights lol black knights get wiped in one turn if focused and blood nights have the 4++ banner to survive the shooting. We play 2500 points btw.

Also as little as I get to play these days I prefer to play regular pitched battles so I just have to find a way to make it work.

edit: since skaven don't have an end times book I won't be using UL.

You get a nice 4++ against shooting, but you also get half as many wounds to start with when you take Blood Knights, and they res a lot slower as well. If you're talking about a unit of 20+ Black Knights and Vampires getting wiped out in a single turn, then taking Blood Knights instead isn't going to help.

You're hamstringing yourself by only playing pitched battles, and further hamstringing yourself by refusing to use UL. Can you even take Morghasts in a VC army? I thought they were UL only.

 

[The Sun King]

Actually I think Skaven is one of our better matchups. I always curbstomp the Corner Castle Rats and I work with the mantra: "Get into Close Combat with Skaven and win the game". The best thing you can do is snipe his general with Spirit Leech. If he brings the Screaming Bell bring Catapults and laugh.

 

[najo]

I don't have much problem with skaven either. Engaging, reducing leadership, tearing through them and controlling their movement (which is easy since they have no mounted or flying units). Smash and make break.

 

[The Sun King]

A unit like: Blender Lord in 50 Skeletons break Slaves in no time.

 

[najo]

Especially running death magic in there too.

 

[The Sun King]

And Aura of Dark Majesty. But all this is really overkill as the Blender will make trizillion kills and the ranks will break steadfast.

 

[estwheadn]

@Blutsauger I don't think anyone was talking about taking 20+ black knights lol. Make is usually 15 which isn't as survivable (statistically) than 10 blood knights. The blood knights also gives a ward save to the vamps who don't have one in case they fail their look out sir.

I think the knight bus might not actually be the way to go. I think you're better off with a standard magic heavy undead horde. How many skeletons do you have? This battle sounds like a rare occasion where our core units can actually win combats. If you include thhese things in your army you should be fine:

double mortis engine at least one blasphemous tomb
to give you +6 casting and rule the magic phase. As well as giving your troops regen(5+) so they can take spears and adding a couple screams once you get close

lvl 4 master necromancer with dispell scroll and master of the dead
count mannfred
These two give you a pretty good chance to get a second copy of vhdm (bubble version).

2-3 units of skeletons with spears
They'll actually win combat against skaven. Especially with VHDM or hellish vigour. You might want to give mannfred a wight king body guard.

Most important spells to get off are vhdm bubble. Doom and darkness on his general. Sniping spells should go on monsters and chariots. Invocation of nehek, probably your first spell to draw out dispel dice. Also wind of death could probably have a lot of utility if you can get close with vhdm. Mannfred's MoTBA ability should help you get good magic phases.

EDIT: if you can get mannfred to break a unit in your enemy's turn then you can get the extra power dice and he will be out of combat to cast wind of death, purple sun and maybe get your necro to cast wind of death with those extra power dice, MoTBA and +6 to cast you could easily get all of these spells off and just annihilate his entire army.

 

[GhoulKing505]

You could always try tons of ghouls and crypt horrors. They have more attacks. The crypt horrors 4 wide and 2 deep would give you 25 attacks with 4 more stomps. The slaves would be hard pressed to wound back as well. A ghoul horde would yield 29 attacks. That should help you chew through those units quickly. Get one more block of probably skeletons for your vamp lord with sword of strife and you should kill his blocks of slaves in three or so rounds of combat.

I'd try that. Haven't played against skaven myself but I've seen what they tend to bring and how they are generally played. It doesn't really look all that fun to play against.

 

[hairyjeff]

What can really ruin his plan is to put a blender lord with Flying horror in a unit- but not if he uses storm banner! try a couple of games with no flyers - he should stop wasting points on a no-use item. then use the flying lord to assassinate his general/ magicians/ war-machine in the next game. after that, he will have the permanent quandry of wether he needs the banner or not - and you have gained a little more control. It's long term, but every little doubt in his mind helps.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Okay so I have two lists with only one difference between them.

Vampire lord: Level 1, Shield, Heavy Armour, Sword of Anti-Heroes, Talisman of Endurance, Red Fury, Quickblood.

Master necromancer: Level 4 Wizard, Ironcurse Icon, Dispel Scroll.

Vampire: Heavy Armor, Coven Throne, Sword of Might, Charmed Shield, Aura of Dark Majesty

Zombies 20: Musician, Standard Bearer
Zombies 20: Musician, Standard Bearer

Skeletons 51: Skeleton Champion, Musician, Standard Bearer, Banner of Eternal Flame

5x dire wolves + doom wolf
5x dire wolves + doom wolf
10x dire wolves + doom wolf

5x hexwraiths

1x spirit host

3x morghast harbingers

2x morghast Archai

1x terrorghiest

The other option for the list is to swap out the necro for a wight king bsb with night shroud, and AHW. Make the vamp lord a level 4, put the dispel scroll on the vamp, and the book of arkhan on the lord.

Yes I know the coven throne is sub optimal. I just cant bring myself to drop it though. Vamp lord goes in skeletons in either case.

Also my opponent is thinking of starting a chaos warriors army so in a few weeks I wont even know what army I am facing. Course I can always bring wood elves instead if I ever bother to get the new book.