Horus Heresy: Is it all the Emperor's Fault?
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Duluoz
Skeleton
I think he was the best. It's as simple as that. The Emperor chose him for a reason - yes he was mistaken, but not initially. It was due to numerous circumstances that he fell, and that's why it's such a great tale. The brighest angel of all, fell, and became the very devil.
Horus himself acknowledges Sanguinius' qualities however. I forget which novel it is, one of the early HH ones, but Horus is having a moment of self-reflection and states that he feels Sanguinius should have been Warmaster, that it was him who was most like their father in all aspects, and rather Horus feels that he was chosen because he represented the Emperor's ambition most of all and that ambition was directed to reclaiming all of humanity's lost colonies and empire of the stars.
It's also stated that they are equal warriors. On the world of Murder they fight side by side on the front lines and there's no separating them. They are demi-gods of the battlefield, both.
Horus himself acknowledges Sanguinius' qualities however. I forget which novel it is, one of the early HH ones, but Horus is having a moment of self-reflection and states that he feels Sanguinius should have been Warmaster, that it was him who was most like their father in all aspects, and rather Horus feels that he was chosen because he represented the Emperor's ambition most of all and that ambition was directed to reclaiming all of humanity's lost colonies and empire of the stars.
It's also stated that they are equal warriors. On the world of Murder they fight side by side on the front lines and there's no separating them. They are demi-gods of the battlefield, both.
I think it's the second novel where Horus says that Sanguinius should have been Warmaster.
So Horus kills Sanguinius... His Equal .. Then mortally wounds his creator. And people want to say that deamon powers aren't awesome! Come on now ya'll, throw a space marine captain up against a deamon prince and see what happens! (unless you watch Ultramarine... Which was terrible).
So Horus kills Sanguinius... His Equal .. Then mortally wounds his creator. And people want to say that deamon powers aren't awesome! Come on now ya'll, throw a space marine captain up against a deamon prince and see what happens! (unless you watch Ultramarine... Which was terrible).
Corien Sumatris said:
You're also gonna have your mind/personality corrupted to the point where you're no longer recognisable as your old self with the odd chance of becoming a spawn :tongue:
But sure some people would take the deal
Hey, Spawn or Prince! The Gods are fickle and that's a gamble you're just going to have to take! I personally would have to go with Tzeentch (Sp) simply because they would always be changing so it would be prince, spawn, horror, god, back to horror, a real small grot, a horror, a prince. It would be never ending! You'll never know what you wake up as the next day! Going to sleep is a gamble!
No matter what i still see Horus as a coward who would not commit to fight on equal terms but had to try to kill people off by trickery and then only did decently in fights because of daemonic power (I say decent as he is dead).
Just wish the emperor would of thought for 2 seconds, "mmmm, this son is the most like myself out of all my sons" rather than "This son seems to be the most ambitious, ambitious people can always be trusted right?" :slapface:
Just wish the emperor would of thought for 2 seconds, "mmmm, this son is the most like myself out of all my sons" rather than "This son seems to be the most ambitious, ambitious people can always be trusted right?" :slapface:
El Syf
Vargheist
It would have been good if the Emperor had the balls just to kill Horus from the off, rather then trying to restore him to his pre-chaos self. Then he could be the walking talking not so dead master of mankind.
@DDM: When was the last time that there was a war that both sides said "I don't think I'm going to do that because the people I hate can't" or wars with trickery? The way to win a war is to hit the enemy where they're weakest. Exploit that weakness to it's fullest. Few examples for you in real life situations.
1. I'm playing against dwarfs so I won't take any magic. It's only fair right? I mean they can't take magic so why should I.
2. I won't use purple sun against lizardmen or ogres because it's just not fair. I don't want to use their low initiative against them!
War is war and Horus doing anything he can to win is the same as anyone doing anything they can to win!
1. I'm playing against dwarfs so I won't take any magic. It's only fair right? I mean they can't take magic so why should I.
2. I won't use purple sun against lizardmen or ogres because it's just not fair. I don't want to use their low initiative against them!
War is war and Horus doing anything he can to win is the same as anyone doing anything they can to win!
Duluoz
Skeleton
Valid point Duluoz! Your logic is sound and I'm sure everyone will agree!! I know I do! Blood for the Blood God!
Ordo Cruentus
Order amongst the Dead
I've never understood the False Emperor thing from Chaos...
How can the leader of a legitimate government, one that you yourself used to ascribe to, be considered "false." I assure you, even if he isn't YOUR head of state, he is still an Emperor to his people.
I mean, the Imperium doesn't recognize the sovereignty of xenos, but even they will use words like "Norn Queen, Warboss, Farseer, Warmaster, Champion, etc." from other races.
Corpse God always kind of made sense as an insult, but the whole False one is just...weird.
In the real world, I may not be a citizen of the UK, but I would still call the royal family by their titles, because to THOSE people, they are in those positions of power. Even if I was hostile, and wanted to destroy it. I wouldn't say "False Queen" for example.
*Sigh
Chaos, why you so lame?
How can the leader of a legitimate government, one that you yourself used to ascribe to, be considered "false." I assure you, even if he isn't YOUR head of state, he is still an Emperor to his people.
I mean, the Imperium doesn't recognize the sovereignty of xenos, but even they will use words like "Norn Queen, Warboss, Farseer, Warmaster, Champion, etc." from other races.
Corpse God always kind of made sense as an insult, but the whole False one is just...weird.
In the real world, I may not be a citizen of the UK, but I would still call the royal family by their titles, because to THOSE people, they are in those positions of power. Even if I was hostile, and wanted to destroy it. I wouldn't say "False Queen" for example.
*Sigh
Chaos, why you so lame?
Duluoz
Skeleton
They didn't 'use' to ascribe themselves to the race/society, they still do. The Chaos versus Imperium is a civil war. That's why Chaos Marines will use the term 'brother' to insult Space Marines, as technically, they are. They disagree with the Imperium's rule, but they're still members of the human race, a race led by the Emperor, a leader whom Chaos marines feel is an impostor and their lord and liege Horus was denied his rightful rule.
Also, don't forget that for many of the Chaos Marines who have dwelt within the warp, time has passed very differently, and for the majority the Horus Heresy is a recent memory and their hatred - fueled by all their martial training, development, and now Chaos influence - still burns brightly, and is for the most part what sustains them. These are men (if they can be called that) who feel betrayed and have lost their leader, and now fight for his heir/their own new leaders/revenge, all directed at the Imperium which - they feel - betrayed them, not the other way around.
It's kind of like Dark Elves versus High Elves, with Malekith/Horus taking the role of spurned heir, but on a galactic scale.
Also, don't forget that for many of the Chaos Marines who have dwelt within the warp, time has passed very differently, and for the majority the Horus Heresy is a recent memory and their hatred - fueled by all their martial training, development, and now Chaos influence - still burns brightly, and is for the most part what sustains them. These are men (if they can be called that) who feel betrayed and have lost their leader, and now fight for his heir/their own new leaders/revenge, all directed at the Imperium which - they feel - betrayed them, not the other way around.
It's kind of like Dark Elves versus High Elves, with Malekith/Horus taking the role of spurned heir, but on a galactic scale.
Ordo Cruentus
Order amongst the Dead
That's actually not quite right. While the Horus Heresy was a civil war in the sense that the members of a same species fought it, Choas' beef was never with the legitimacy of the Emperor. They just thought he was an aloof bastard who had abandoned them, and Horus was better suited to lead. Technically, this is a military coup based on a large force being swept up in the goals of a charismatic leader. Even from their own point of view, they have no legitimate claim to the throne.
From their point of view, they are basically the people of the French Revolution. Fighting because they think their leaders sucked. But that doesn't invalidate the French Aristocracy.
So again...False...doesn't make any sense.
From their point of view, they are basically the people of the French Revolution. Fighting because they think their leaders sucked. But that doesn't invalidate the French Aristocracy.
So again...False...doesn't make any sense.
Duluoz
Skeleton
Tomay-to/Tomato, you've just said what I said in a slightly different way. But I'm not sure I understand - you make the case for Chaos excellently, I mean you obviously know your stuff, but then say you don't understand the use of the term false?
"From their point of view, they are basically the people of the French Revolution. Fighting because they think their leaders sucked. But that doesn't invalidate the French Aristocracy.
So again...False...doesn't make any sense."
But that's exactly what it does. It depends on your political view. For example: if you're a royalist, you believe in the Royal Family, if you're a communist then you believe in all men are equal (let's not get into which is right here, just in layman's terms what they mean). Thus to Communists, the Royal Family do not represent what they consider to be 'correct' 'just' or 'fair' rule, they are not legitimate leaders as the communists do not believe in their rule nor the rule of law that entitles them to such power, thus, they are false rulers.
So the Imperium have their governing (corpse) body, but Chaos believe that Horus - whether by might, force of conquest, by the inept rule of the Emperor, whatever, it doesn't matter - was the rightful Emperor of mankind. Thus, the current Emperor is false.
For the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter why Chaos believe in Horus, but that they simply do, and that is why the Emperor is false, because to them he is not the rightful leader.
Also, remember that many different viewpoints have their own valid logic and evidence, and people believe what is suited to them. Does this make other viewpoints inferior? That's a much deeper discussion.
The point is very simple for Chaos and I think you're over complicating it with 'validity of rule' and so on. It comes down to this: Chaos follow Horus, they believe he is the rightful leader. Therefore, the current leader of mankind is false.
It's that simple. GW isn't going into huge debates of political power for the purposes of a gameplay narrative, which is where the term was first used, way before the current Black Library novels explored the Horus Heresy.
"From their point of view, they are basically the people of the French Revolution. Fighting because they think their leaders sucked. But that doesn't invalidate the French Aristocracy.
So again...False...doesn't make any sense."
But that's exactly what it does. It depends on your political view. For example: if you're a royalist, you believe in the Royal Family, if you're a communist then you believe in all men are equal (let's not get into which is right here, just in layman's terms what they mean). Thus to Communists, the Royal Family do not represent what they consider to be 'correct' 'just' or 'fair' rule, they are not legitimate leaders as the communists do not believe in their rule nor the rule of law that entitles them to such power, thus, they are false rulers.
So the Imperium have their governing (corpse) body, but Chaos believe that Horus - whether by might, force of conquest, by the inept rule of the Emperor, whatever, it doesn't matter - was the rightful Emperor of mankind. Thus, the current Emperor is false.
For the purposes of this discussion, it doesn't matter why Chaos believe in Horus, but that they simply do, and that is why the Emperor is false, because to them he is not the rightful leader.
Also, remember that many different viewpoints have their own valid logic and evidence, and people believe what is suited to them. Does this make other viewpoints inferior? That's a much deeper discussion.
The point is very simple for Chaos and I think you're over complicating it with 'validity of rule' and so on. It comes down to this: Chaos follow Horus, they believe he is the rightful leader. Therefore, the current leader of mankind is false.
It's that simple. GW isn't going into huge debates of political power for the purposes of a gameplay narrative, which is where the term was first used, way before the current Black Library novels explored the Horus Heresy.
Ordo Cruentus
Order amongst the Dead
I'm a geek. Hyper-dissecting fictional characters and their motivations is just something that I do. 
And even if we were to accept that their beef with the Emperor invalidates his rulership in their own eyes (which I'm still not convinced it does), their leader, their "true" ruler, is dead. All claim is officially gone.
Abaddon may be Horus' successor, but I don't think Chaos is fighting for HIM to rule, so...
And even if we were to accept that their beef with the Emperor invalidates his rulership in their own eyes (which I'm still not convinced it does), their leader, their "true" ruler, is dead. All claim is officially gone.
Abaddon may be Horus' successor, but I don't think Chaos is fighting for HIM to rule, so...
In our gaming group in northern Illinois we don't use the "False Emperor" We use the term "False God" due to the fact that he was fancied a Demi-God and the Chaos Gods (Real Gods) defeated him. So it's not a hit to the fact that the emperor of mankind isn't the true ruler, It's an insult that he is not a God.
Edit: We also use the phrase "Panzy God" because if he wasn't a demigod then it wouldn't make much sense that the Space Marines were anything special.
Edit: We also use the phrase "Panzy God" because if he wasn't a demigod then it wouldn't make much sense that the Space Marines were anything special.
the Emperor actually had no claim to rule humanity, he kinda just grabbed the throne, I meat what really gives him the right
Duluoz
Skeleton
He had the right because he was able to. Might, in that case, was right. The right of conquest, after all.
Well he was what like 11 feet tall? If some dude like that said that he was now the rule I don't think I would try to go fisty-cuffs with him.
Ordo Cruentus
Order amongst the Dead
Also, in 40k fluff, hasn't the Emperor always been around? Like, since caveman times? Or did they change that?
Can't say if that is still the fluff but it deffinetly use to be! Also we know for a fact he has been around for like 20,000 years already!
Ordo Cruentus said:
Well he's been around since those "wise" shaman got together to do their voodoo to create a superior being for the "betterment" of mankind.
Quoted from Lexicanum apparently using "Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned, Realm of Chaos: Slaves to Darkness" as a source.
"The oldest information given on the Emperor's origin relates that he was born to mortal parents in the 8th Millennium BC[3a] manifesting his powers as a youth. One account of the Emperor's origin goes so far as to say that he had mortal brothers and sisters and details the time and location of his birthplace - eight thousand years before the first millennium, in the region of Terra then known as Central Anatolia. This account also claims that the Emperor's birth, while a natural process, was actually the result of a scheme created by the wisest and most powerful of living humans at that time; the conclave of Shamans. These men, termed 'shamans' by their society, were powerful psykers with great experience of the Warp. Finding their souls - and those of humanity - endangered by the growing perils of the Warp-gods, these psykers decided to pool their power into one human, a being they called 'the New Man'. Already having gained the power to reincarnate themselves (upon death, the shamans' souls would transfer to the Warp, accumulating power enough to reincarnate as human) the shamans entered a suicide-pact. Thousands of them poisoned themselves and sped their souls to the warp at the same time. Presumably pooling their soul-energy and using their reincarnation ability, they brought about the birth of their New Man - the Emperor - one year later. This New Man, once he had learned of his special nature, proceeded to haunt the history of humanity as a ghost; watching, waiting and occasionally influencing"
Ordo Cruentus
Order amongst the Dead
Deathless Dreamer
Ghoul
You're all over-analysing this. The whole thing of Imperium vs Chaos is just symbolism. The forces of Chaos are aptly named, they fight for nothing other than the desire to cause mayhem, destruction and to gain personal power for themselves. Yet because there are so many servants of chaos, each of whom seeks ultimate power, they fight amongst themselves. Each is motivated by their own selfish desires and selfish opinions, including Abaddon.
The forces of Chaos seek only to destroy, not to build anything new, not to create a new Imperium. They only want to tear down the Imperium and engulf the galaxy in the realm of chaos. After that the forces of Chaos would destroy themselves and then the Chaos Gods would have no more emotions to feed off and so Chaos would end.
In the end it's all just a metaphor for Order vs. Chaos. The moral of the story is that one cannot exist without the other. Chaos feeds off order, and order exists in reaction to chaos.
The forces of Chaos seek only to destroy, not to build anything new, not to create a new Imperium. They only want to tear down the Imperium and engulf the galaxy in the realm of chaos. After that the forces of Chaos would destroy themselves and then the Chaos Gods would have no more emotions to feed off and so Chaos would end.
In the end it's all just a metaphor for Order vs. Chaos. The moral of the story is that one cannot exist without the other. Chaos feeds off order, and order exists in reaction to chaos.
Well duh we're going to over analyze everything lol! Thats what forums are for, discussion! If everything on here was answered with "That's just the way it is" then this would be a mighty dull place!