How do you beat tzeench-bloodthirster army?

[abhorash_chile]

Hello all,

In my last tournament I was totally destroyed by this army list:

Bloodthirster with fire sword, inmortal fury, obsidian armour.
Herald of tzeench, master of sorcery (lore of beasts), winged horror.
Herald of tzeench, master of sorcery (lore of beasts), winged horror.
Herald of tzeench, master of sorcery (lore of beasts), winged horror.

11 horrors of tzeench.
10 horrors of tzeench.
10 horrors of tzeench.
5 flesh hounds of khorne.
6 Flammers of tzeench 1 of them is a pyrocaster.
4 screamers of tzeench.
6 chaos furies.

Well, playing against that was very, very frustrating. He had 8 dispell dice and 11 power dice.

Not even my blood knights with strigos was capable of bring down the bloodthirster, I only did 4 wounds, and the bloodthirster hit and wound with all of his attacks, so with 7 str 7 wounds my knights were vaporized from the table...

And well, his magic phase was also terrible, casting spears at my cavalry from the flank, or missiles into my troops...

I smiled only once in that game, after a undispelled wind of death causes the 5th wound to his bloodthirster, hidden behind a wood to avoid the gaze of nagash.

How can a vampire army could beat this? with so many dispell dice, the magic phase is very poor, and with his bloodthirster flying around, no unit is really safe! for the liche's crown, if he charges to the front he can eat 9-10 foot troops each turn , or an entire cavalry!, if he manages to charge you from the flank, he can eat at least 13 foot troops per turn! and with his dispell dice you can't raise so many again... and if the daemon player isn't stupid he will sent the thirster against your general and not after your cheap units on foot. The 7 wolves tactic can be easily avoided using a magic missile, or flammers or screamers to drop the unit bellow 7.

Please help.

 

[Mikael.K]

Well, I say fight fire with fire. A magic heavy list with a lord that has forbidden lore. This of course provides that the thirster can be beast cower´d.

Apart from that, the flesh hounds and flamers are the real dangers in this list. Use magic or close combat to get rid of the flamers. Magic missiles should hurt the hounds aswell.

Looks like a boring list to be up against IMO.

 

[abhorash_chile]

it could be, but remember the magic resistance 2 for the bloodthirster and the magic resistance 3 for the hounds... it's really annoying that list... I know if i play with my empire tournament list I can kick the daemon's ass (cannons+pegasi hero with van horstman's+20-30 st4 shoots), but with VC... it seems nearly impossible

And I'm aware that my oponent wasn't so cleaver because he never casted the beast cower into my cavalry (and because that I was able of charge the bloodthirster), so that's why I'm frustrated... the daemons are so autoplay that even if you posess more strategy they beat you anyway?

 

[Hardt von Carstein]

I'm not that good player but from the looks it seems like he has only the bloodthirster and flesh hounds who are great in close combat. How about a fast list with bloodknights, Varghulf and many black knights? ghouls for core with that free movement power, which slipped off my memory (ghoulkin?). problem is, having both a strong magic and strong close combat phase.

Anyway with 60 ghouls getting free 8 movment in the start then an additional 8 if you get the first turn. The black knights charging stuff through the woods and the bloodknights ripping apart the flesh hounds. The Varghulf chasing some small horror units and flanking stuff. I've still no idea of how to protect your general vs the Bloodthirster. Think your best bet is charging him with bloodknights and a combat vampire BSB. Maybe with warbanner and that +1 combat res power and blackknights, with banner of barrows. +2 banners, +1 outnumber, +1 rank, +1 vampire power, +1 warbanner. Puts you at 6 before combat even starts, I'm still unsure how you BSB going to survive the bloodthisters retaliation though.

Combined charge of a 20 strong ghoulblock and a knight regiement is the only thing I can think of.

You might want some felbats teamed up with a flying combat-vampire to take out the flamers, furies, screamers whatever.

Not sure if to have magic characters to dispell his magic or try and have combat characters with dispell scrolls and try dispell all of his while closing the distance fast and going for the kill. I'd go for the second option I think.

 

[N.I.B]

the daemons are so autoplay that even if you posess more strategy they beat you anyway?

Pretty much, yes.

 

[abhorash_chile]

I'm terrified, because i made a lot of improvements to the daemon list, and they are absolutly no way of beat that if the daemon player plays wisely...

 

[dabber]

You didn't know that Daemons were overpowered? *shock* Every Warhammer forum has talked about it. Even the Daemon forum has had a huge thread along the lines of "this is too easy".

Daemons have absolutely dominated GW tournaments since their release. VC had a clear bump in tournament finish for the half dozen GTs between the VC release and the Daemon release, but the Daemons stopped that. If playing in a no-comp tournament, the odds are about 50-50 Daemons will finish 1st. Almost all Daemons armies will finish in the top third. If playing in a comped tournament, you mark down any Daemon list that isn't obviously trying to play nice.

 

[abhorash_chile]

nah, I know that, but I never realized how overpowered they are until one wipe out my entire army.
Things like this made me want to put some mercenary cannons in my army.

For the next tournament I will try with my empire army, I feel they had much more chance.

Update!

I think this list could work:
Vampire lord with extra magic level. 445 points.
Vampiric powers: Master of black arts, Dark acolyte, summon ghouls.
Magic items: Skull staff, the flayed hauberk, biting blade.

Vampire. 185 points.
Vampiric powers: Ghoulkin, Dread knight.
Magic items: Book of arkhan.

Vampire. 195 points.
Vampiric powers: Dark acolyte, summon ghouls.
Magic items: Talisman of the lycni, sword of battle, armour of the night.

Vampire. 190 points.
Vampiric powers: Dark acolyte, summon ghouls.
Magic items: Helm of comandment, black periapt.

20 crypt ghouls, including crypt ghast. 168 points.
15 crypt ghouls, including crypt ghast. 128 points.
14 crypt ghouls, including crypt ghast. 120 points.

7 dire wolves, including doom wolf. 66 points.
7 dire wolves, including doom wolf. 66 points.

corpse cart with balefire. 100 points.
corpse cart with balefire. 100 points.

6 black knights, including hell knight and standard bearer, royal standard of strigos. 235 points.

Total 1998 points.
Power dice: 13
Dispell dice: 7

with 13 die and 3 bound spells, his 8 DD probably can't stand, and I thinked to myself "well, if they are no way of killing the f*****g bloodthirster, then I'm going to pay no attention to him". If I don't field any megaunit, the bloodthirster cannot kill as many points as his value.
I fear no more for my general, because if the thirster charges into the main ghoul unit, my champion will sacrifice itself to contain the beast, and in my own turn I can charge with one of the support ghoul unit (and bring back the brave ghast), this way I hope I can contain the great daemon. If I use skeletons instead of ghouls I can even win the combat each turn by one!
So i'm optimistic again. If you can't kill it, ignore it.
And regarding the pesky magic, with the +2 to the dificulty, I expect to deal with less sucessfull cast rolls each turn, so I think I'll be fine.

 

[N.I.B]

DoC are pretty much the anti-VC army, other armies have an easier time, but not much.

With that said, I usually don't loose to DoC unless there is a Bloodthirster and/or a stubborn banner on the other side. VC can be nails too.

 

[Grey Man]

With that said, I usually don't loose to DoC unless there is a Bloodthirster and/or a stubborn banner on the other side. VC can be nails too.

OK, so what's in your list? And what do you think might work against the BT, since they're just about everywhere?

 

[N.I.B]

OK, so what's in your list? And what do you think might work against the BT, since they're just about everywhere?

Which one? I have about 20-30 lists currently.

BT are hard to deal with. A good deployment and a caster lord would be your best bet, try to pin it with ranked blocks with champ, and keep his BSB away.

 

[chris_havoc]

I'm guessing Grey meant the one that works best/most reliably.

Just a question though... isn't it hard to get a block of infantry into combat with a BT? That doesn't seem very reliable to me. Especially in a Tzeench-BT list where there are lots of dispel dice and probably scrolls to mess around with your Van Hel's. If you're playing someone that's any good they'll be wise enough to avoid huge blocks of infantry. So maybe specifics would help more.

 

[Grey Man]

I'm guessing Grey meant the one that works best/most reliably.

Indeed, that is what I was looking for. While having success with 20-30 different lists might make it hard to distill them into a post, it would still be more helpful to the rest of us than simply stating how well you do. That gives hope, which is good, but I would appreciate something more tangible.

Just a question though... isn't it hard to get a block of infantry into combat with a BT? That doesn't seem very reliable to me.

It can be done, but it ain't easy. One way to limit where BT's can go is by not giving them enough space to land. If your units are too close together for him to leap over them, then you can somewhat limit where he goes. But that's not easy to do, and those DoC sure do put out a lot of DD, not to mention that ridiculous -2 casting banner. Whoever thought that one up should be slapped.

 

[chris_havoc]

Yeah of all the armies I guess we have the best chance of getting a charge off against it. Still I wouldn't exactly call it reliable. The rest of the army isn't impossible to deal with they're quite tough but not unstoppable but with the added danger of a Blood Thirster... it messes with our game. I remember hearing that that -2 banner doesn't affect IoN because it's technically not a part of the Lore of Vampires. Which is something good at least. I agree that the best way to deal with it is large infantry blocks but still. I suppose the 7 Dire Wolves with Doom Wolf trick could work to hold the thing up for a turn. Then attempt to charge him with an infantry block. Although that still doesn't seem like an easy manoeuvre to pull off it is somewhat plausible.

 

[N.I.B]

As I said 'unless there's a BT and/or a stubborn banner on the other side'. Against stubborn Bloodthirsters (most cases in other words) I'm playing for a draw - if I'm lucky. If I have an infantry army; caster lord, refused corner, raise raise raise, protect flanks, use terrain, Helm of Commandment to keep non-thirster fights going your way. Always try to separate BT from his BSB. 2 x dragon trap Dire Wolves help you control were it can land.

If I go magic heavy he can't really land the BT within 12" from my army unless he want to risk being flanked by a new or old block. Try to get 2 of your champions into the fight, that way he can never wail on your rank and file, since you'll raise both back in your turn.

2 x Banshees + Aura of Dark Majesty can be nice, done it a few times. Keep them behind your blocks. A couple of turns of screaming could very well result in a dead Bloodthirster.

Fast death star black knight builds are harder to win with, due to Siren Song in combo with stubborn mainly. It's so hard to deal with. Against stubborn deamon armies, key is to kill the 0+/5+ save Khorne herald, easier said than done. Or keep him out of the important areas. Also hard. If I can get the charge on a BSB Herald block (usually Bloodletters) with a death star Black Knight block, I can wipe them out in a couple of turns. But you have to get around Siren Song first.

Nice bonus after the new FAQ is that you can now catch Flamers with Lycni thrall without being fried on the way in.

Also Winds of Undeath can be nice in some cases, now that we can't use MR against area spells.

Daemons without stubborn is a whole other game, I don't care what he has, it will still be a hard fight but a much easier fight. 12" stubborn is what makes them totally OTT imo.

 

[chris_havoc]

So master powers and the like are a huge asset when facing DoC. Makes sense. A Bunkered Lord with Skull Staff and Helm of Commandment? Then necro or support vampire somewhere with the Book of Arkhan? Dire Wolf dragon trap is a good card to pull as well, you say?

The problem that brings is you sacrifice a lot of mobility having to bunch yourself up refusing him a charge over units and stuff. And a flank charge can turn disastrous because you can't issue a challenge and he can just beat you down and cancel your cr. I know that's being out-played but still it's not that difficult for a BT to manouevre in such a way so a tiny mistake is far more easily taken advantage of.

Yes! I knew I was forgetting something to help the banshees! Although against DoC you're looking at an entire army of magical attacks so you'd have to be exceedingly careful with them. Flamers are especially dangerous in that regard.

I know what you're talking about the Daemons can mess everyone around if they have some Slaanesh in the army. I find the 0+ save is incredibly hard to deal with. And Curse of Years is almost ineffectual on units with as few models as Blood Crushers. They move quick and hit hard too but against Death Stars their lack of knightly armour can lead to their downfall. A BSB in infantry is definitely not as tough to deal with as that in my opinion. Their core, generally speaking, isn't all that bad except flamers. In my opinion - in order of descending power - it goes; Flamers, Daemonettes, Plaguebearers and Bloodletters. The latter two being about on par.

I agree completely that the stubborn banner makes daemons that one step too powerful simply because it nullifies their biggest weakness.

 

[Grey Man]

What's the "Dire Wolf Dragon Trap"? I don't recognize the lingo....

The problem that brings is you sacrifice a lot of mobility having to bunch yourself up refusing him a charge over units and stuff.

Well, that's the thing about these DoC builds. They're super fast. A BT, Khorne Hounds, and even the Slaanesh special choice (forget the name) is often on you in turn 2 and they hit like a ton of bricks. So you really don't have much of a choice- they're going to get the charge. You have to find a way to take it, stick around, and then hit him where it hurts.

Refused corner and raising sounds like the best overall plan. Wounds is the problem, because with that banner you pretty much gotta kill 'em, so gotta have units that can do wounds. Since the BK deathstar isn't so hot, what about GG? Maybe with a CC behind them? That would at least suck out two DD a turn and give you a better shot at raising.

 

[chris_havoc]

If you take a unit of 7 Dire Wolves including a Doom Wolf and you manage to charge or trick your opponent into charging the unit you issue a challenge and in the challenge the max bonus to CR he can get is 6 (1 for killing the champion and 5 for overkill) this means currently he's winning by 6 but you still out number so you lose by 5 which leaves you with one Dire Wolf left which means he's stuck there for the next round.

 

[N.I.B]

With refused flank deployment, using terrain and raising new units, it's not that hard to deny flank charges, and if he has a Bloodthirster + a Khorne Herald he usually suffers in the magic phase, so you should be safe. Dire Wolves to divert and march block, so he can't send everything in at the same time.

Small units of Wraits are easy to protect behind your lines, trust me. Just make sure there aren't enough space for a BT to land to get them. Flamers can't see through your units unless standing on a nearby hill, and if you have a tight deployment and if he want's to get stuck in, he'll mess up his own LOS.

Large Skellie blocks with + CR banners are good because they rack up static combat resolution. Ghoul units can be ace too, if you get Danse Macabre off on them they can mess up daemon support and core units and even pick off the odd wound off a BT.

Grave Guards with hand weapon/shields/Warbanner are better than Black Knights against Daemons. Good static CR, easier to heal, and still hard to hurt (for anything bar a BT or a Khorne Herald).

With refused flank, raise and grind - prepare for a boring game. But remember that you aren't forced to just walk out there and handing him an autowin. Your opponent is as much to blame when he made an army list with 0+ BSB with stubborn banner, Siren Songs and Bloodthirster.

The best way of killing the 0+/5+ BSB is probably a mounted Wight King with Sword of Kings/Gem of Blood, backed up by Banner of the Barrows. Done it a few times. Still only perhaps a 50/50 chance. Try to get the charge after the Herald unit have been in combat for a round, so they lost the benefits of hatred.

I have less experience against the Tzeentch flying circus magic/shooting 40K style list, but I don't think it can be worse than the above.

 

[Zachariah]

Also Winds of Undeath can be nice in some cases, now that we can't use MR against area spells.

Could you point me to where this is stated, so I may officially rejoice?

 

[N.I.B]

https://www.vampirecounts.net/showthread.php?tid=3786