How many dice to use for IoN?

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Grish

Liche
True Blood
Oct 11, 2007
5,319
Winnipeg, MB
Zombies
2,624
Hi,

I'm curious to see the math between using 1 or 2 dice to cast IoN and which, on average, is more effective. I'd assume for the discussion that you have a +1 to cast from either skullstaff or appropriate vampire power.

Hopefully we can answer what is more effective when you have many more power dice than the opponent's dispel (4 or more) and what is more effective when you have only 2 or less more power dice than the opponent has dispel dice.

Any math students out there up to the challenge of dissecting this?

Cheers,
Grish
 
With a +1 to cast IoN 1 dice is going to be supperior. For the fact you can't miscast if nothing else. Not only that, once dice with a +1 or +2 rolling a 4 or better and your opponent almost always has to burn two dice to stop the spell, and you get to try again. It's a pain to roll over half your dice under 3 in a single magic phase...but imagine if that happened with two dice which caused a misscast and killed your general.

I'll take 1 dice tyvm.
 
I agree, the less chance of miscasting with your Lord the better, whatever the maths its always better to err om the side of caution when it comes to your general and with some of the 10-15PD armies I've seen you should get enough of them through anyway to keep you happy.
 
I agree that one dice would be the most effective way to go. I have been, however, extremely frustrated by my luck in doing this. In the last two games I've played, of the 12 or so times I tried to cast IoN with 1 dice, it would go off 2 or 3 times. Getting a 4+ on a single dice is a 50% chance, however I seem to land it about 10% of the time!:devil:
 
If you have skullstaff or the raising bloodlines, go for one die, otherwise use 2. The lord should have a raising bloodline so he should then be safe from miscasts. Thats my 2 cent at least...
 
It's +1 on the casting roll (that's what it says in my book). The only way to get +1 to the number rolled is to have a corpse cart with unholy lodestone within 6".
 
Nermal said:
It's +1 on the casting roll (that's what it says in my book). The only way to get +1 to the number rolled is to have a corpse cart with unholy lodestone within 6".

Hmm I seem to be off my game today, could've swore it was to the number of models raised, well if that's the case it is still very handy when combined with the skull staff as though a 1 or 2 always fails even with modifiers any other role means the final casting value will be high enough to warrant at least two dispel dice if they want to stop it.
 
The miscast is something I didn't think of... as so much is riding on your general, I think I have to agree 1 dice is the way to go regardless.
 
I like to throw 1 dice, as I have enough to draw most of my opponents out, and still hit a big one to finish. Plus, its only a 3+, I would rather have them all dispelled and get a big one off.

Of course, everyone at club is magic heavy goblins (curse those blasted fanatics) and magic heavy High Elves, so I rarely succeed with much magic.
 
Some math. Firstly, the Power only grants +1 when IoN on skeletons, the Arcane item works on all units.

Casting on 4+ is 50% success, 50% fail
Casting on 3+ is 66% success, 33% fail

With two dice, and casting with one dice at 4+

2 Success 25%
1 Success 50%
0 Success 25%

casting with two dice at 4+
IF 2.7%
1 Success 88.9%
0 Success 5.6%
Miscast 2.7%

With two dice, and casting with one dice at 3+

2 Success 43.5%
1 Success 45.6%
0 Success 10.9%

casting with two dice 3+
IF 2.7%
1 Success 94.4%
Miscast 2.7%

This shows that two dice is more certain, but one dice has a higher Expected Value.
 
No Arch has it right. He's only taking into consideration 1 success; not two successes. If you're talking about the possibility at least one would succeed it would be 89.1%.
 
Yeah Arch is correct.

I know what you are thinking though.

Chance to succede once on 1 dice is 66.66% surely that increases if you try twice? Thing is though that you will fail to successfully cast once, because you have successfully cast twice. See what I mean? So the second dice reduces your chance to succede once because of the extra chance to succede twice. Remember the total probability has to add up to 1 (100%).

Now back to the main thread:

With two dice, and casting with one dice at 3+

2 Success 43.5%
1 Success 45.6%
0 Success 10.9%

casting with two dice 3+
IF 2.7%
1 Success 94.4%
Miscast 2.7%

If we look here we can see that if you roll 2 dice you have a 94.4% chance of succeding once. Compared to only 89.1% of succeding AT LEAST once with two dice, which includes a 43.5% chance of succeding twice. Those percentages are very close only 5.3% in it (little more than 1/20).

However, the two dice senario has 2.7% chance of misfiring or IFing (5.4%). The miscast is very very bad, especially if it happens to your general. By comparison how much is the IF worth to you? I would suggest not much, a guarenteed d6 skellies big whoop. d6 skellies are worth what compared to your general? Also an IF fails to draw out any DD or scrolls from your opponent. So you could in fact argue that in the case of IoN an IF result would actually be a negitive result. I mean the main question in this thread is how many DD am I sucking out of my opponent right?

Considering this the 2 x 1 dice senario gets a nice boost.

EDIT: I thought I would highlight the fact that the 2x1 senario provides more successful casts, which is very useful. However, that is before any dispelling attempts.

However!

there are other dispelling considerations to make. (forgive me for not using much maths, I would only stuff it up).

firstly the good news for the 2 x 1 dice senario. you have a +1 for each cast, if you are casting twice then you are adding that +1 to two rolls. If you cast once with 2 dice, then you are only adding it once. So theoretically you are getting more bang for your buck out of the skullstaff/bloodpower when you use two single dice.

Now the bad. 1x2 dice is hard to dispell. You are looking at an average roll of 7+1 so your opponent will need an 8 to succede. Most opponents will throw 2 dice at this, and they will fail most of the time. Some will use 3 to be "sure". the best result is 12+1 meaning that 4DD (average 14) will be the order of the day.

A success on 1 dice averages at 3.5+1 so your opponent needs 4-5 to succede and will very likely to succede with two dice. The best result will be 6+1 and again the opponent is more likely to succede than fail with 2 dice. So the only time you are better off with 2 casts of 1 dice is the 43.5% of the time that you succede with both casts.

EDIT: If you roll badly with 2 dice say rolling 3-6 (38.889% chance) then obviously that is comparible to the 1 dice score, however this is comparing bad luck with 2d6 to good luck with 1D6 which is a bit rude lol.

EDIT part 2: [philosophy alert] As a guideline you should consider that (excuse me if this makes no sense) 2D6 is exactly 1D6 more than 1D6. So if you rolled a 5 on the 1D6 roll, then you are essentially comparing that to 1D6+5 for the 2D6 roll. This is true because the choice you make is whether or not you roll the second dice. In each senario you roll the first dice, it's only the second dice that is different. Does that make any sense at all? [/philosophy]


(dodgy maths alert)

94.4% (success rate with two dice) - 43.5% (chances of 2 successes with 2x1 dice) = 50.9% as 50.9 > 43.5 I would suggest that 1x2 dice would be better than 2x1 dice slightly more often.

/dodgy maths


Okay so we have established that an average successful cast with two dice is better than the best possible with 1 success from 1 dice.

How does 1 success with 2 dice compare with 2 successes with 1 dice?

Average result on 2 dice is 7+1 requiring 8 to dispell. with 2 dice your opponent has a 5/12 chance of succeding (41.667%).

Average result on 1 dice is 3.5+1. lets say 1 requires a 4 and the other a 5. if your opponent uses 1 dice twice.

50% chance of beating the 4
33.33% of beating the 5
(16.665% of beating both)

Chances are you are likely to draw out a second DD to beat the 5
50% beat the 4
83.333% beat the 5

Grand total of 41.667% chance to beat them both

So the difference between a 1x2 success and 2x1 successes is (on average) exactly 1 DD ;) I love it when things work out like that.

EDIT: Another point to consider is that with 1x2 the dispell is either a pass or fail. With 2x1 you might pass both, fail both, pass 1 and fail the other, fail one and pass the other.

But always remember a bad result on 1x2 is your general blowing up (2.7% misfire). A bad result on 2x1 is losing two PD for nothing (10.9%) but trying again next turn...


I hope I managed to both; be correct and make some sense.
 
If anyone is still confused: The Master powers add +1 to CASTING value, not to the model count. This was a blunder that has yet to be washed from our systems, and I really wish it would go away.

Skullstaff + Master power = +2. Getting the spell off makes it a base value of 5, causing most enemys to use 2 DD if they want to reliably get rid of it.
 
Just remember that the three Master powers for +1 to cast apply to different classes of units, Skeletons, Creatures, and Ghouls. There is no Master power for Zombies, so you need all three to have a comprehensive coverage.

Since 1 and 2 always fails, the combination of Staff and Master power is of little (but some) value (It makes it harder to dispel, but does not help casting) if you use onr dice most of the time.
 
The Dead of Night said:
Now the bad. 1x2 dice is hard to dispell. You are looking at an average roll of 7+1 so your opponent will need an 8 to succede. Most opponents will throw 2 dice at this, and they will fail most of the time. Some will use 3 to be "sure". the best result is 12+1 meaning that 4DD (average 14) will be the order of the day.
Wouldn't a 12 be IF? :mrgreen:
 
I think one dice is the way to go but what can be really nasty against this lord is the use of spell destruction scrolls or runes. For an item that costs as two normal dispell scrolls you get a 50% chance of destroying IoN of the VC lord (that has the +1 to cast ability). If our enemies bring two or three of these our lord has a big chance of not casting any IoNs at all
 
I think that 1 Dice is the way to go if you are magic heavy, if not then 2 will be better.

I think it is unlikely you will see too many spell breakers. They're expensive, so you can only have 1 per hero character, and its a 50% gamble. Realistically there are many better options for that hero. A lord could take two, but that would be a complete waste!

I highly doubt you will see 2-3 and even if you do that is only 1-1.5 successes.
 
Even with 1 die losing 1/3 of them on average?

Hmm magic heavy vampire with 6 dice, on average 4 would go off with a casting roll on average of 5.5 meaning 2 dice to dispel each.

So if the opponent has 4 dispel dice, he would dispel 2 leaving 2.

With the same 6, using 2 each, all 3 should go off, and on average the casting level will be 8. With 4 or 5 dispel dice, they would dispel probably only one, maybe 2... so approximately same results.

Strange. Math was never my strong suit, but it seems weird to me that when you lose 1/3 of your dice on average I would think you would have a weaker magic phase but it doesn't seem to be the case...
 

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