How many Necropolis Knights?

[Adam_Barrow]

Because it doesn't have to go in the Know Thy Enemy board anymore, and before I hit Buy It Now on these models I'm eyeing to VC up the TK unit for my UL...

--all that was fun to type--

Can I get by with a unit of 3 Necrosnake Knights? What's the conventional wisdom on unit size for these dudes? Do people even really use them? I'm experiencing an embarrassment of riches with all the TK options suddenly available to me. I know there are some Sandy Undead players lurking about. Any tips would be awesome, including uses for this unit. But especially how many to take in one unit.

 

[Seneschal]

As a longtime player of the other undead, my advice to you is this;

Zero

In all honesty, all the vamp army really needs from TKs for undead legion is the casket, maybe a few horse archers and perhaps a heirotitan if you aren't in a shooty meta (and yes I know how to screen and hide but his ability requires him to keep moving). For funsies, a liche or two and a prince/king could be thrown in.

That said...

I never liked units of three for any purpose. It's five to six and that's it. Morghasts can fill their role better. I take full command with mine. Their uses include screening archers and taking the charge away from knights(after which you kb them). If I could count all the times I've kb'ed a character with those boys...then, Uhm, I could reach 12 or so.

It's my firm belief that legion has better options than the majority of what's in the TK army. I would save your cash personally unless you don't mind buying a few more if them afterward and fielding them in fun games

 

[Cela Shyish]

I actually rate them fairly highly, I'd be inclined to say a unit of 6 would be best, much like with most monstrous things as with a 3+ armour and T4 I think it was? (haven't played in a year and admittedly never actually owned any but I've been looking at them for awhile) makes them an good anvil the same as Crypt Horrors but faster if I recall correctly and capable of far more damage as they're monstrous cavalry so they're mounts hit at S5 with 3 poisoned attacks, beating crypt horror damage output plus 2kb per rider, making them more lethal than vargheists or morghasts, but without being as flimsy as vargheists, I'd say put them against things your vargheists would face but might be too flimsy for, so asf things like elves would be a good match-up, e.g. witch elves poison is strong against morghasts, vargheists and crypt horrors as they all have poor saves, the 3+ on necropolis knights plus the 5 attacks each make them better suited to carving through a horde of them than any of the other three and for surviving. Just my thoughts though. I personally would use them just because I like the models.

 

[Hellion Nox]

I wouldn't compare them with horrors for they serve a different role. They are a unit that threaten flanks/rears. Given, their stats are decent and they do rock that 3+ AS but any unit with a high S can lower that. Horrors regen save is much more reliable in my opinion. So no anvil unit here.

Vargheists are.. glasscannons. But they make up for it with great mobility and support. EBTS on snakes means they're usually off on sides without the support of your army. Vampiric + flying is good for multiple reasons.

So I'd rate them a multi tool. Not really bad but not really great either. I'd probably not use them because I feel like Horrors/Vargheists serve other 'extreme' roles better in the army.

 

[Cela Shyish]

I wouldn't compare them with horrors for they serve a different role. They are a unit that threaten flanks/rears. Given, their stats are decent and they do rock that 3+ AS but any unit with a high S can lower that. Horrors regen save is much more reliable in my opinion. So no anvil unit here.

Vargheists are.. glasscannons. But they make up for it with great mobility and support. EBTS on snakes means they're usually off on sides without the support of your army. Vampiric + flying is good for multiple reasons.

So I'd rate them a multi tool. Not really bad but not really great either. I'd probably not use them because I feel like Horrors/Vargheists serve other 'extreme' roles better in the army.

I actually meant to rate them as a multi-tool and I do appreciate the preference of more specialised units, in fact I frequently debate with my older brother on this matter in 40k. I just prefer the fact that they can serve different purposes so it makes it easier to adapt. But having said that my meta is less competitive so I can't really judge from a competitive standpoint. But I don't think they should be quickly dismissed.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

So I'm hearing go big or probably don't use at all. How about for summoning from Lore of Undeath? Or say I opted for Sepulchral Stalkers instead? (I know those dudes are super meta-dependent. Dwarves? Rock on. Elves? Not so much.)

What I'm getting is Necropolis Knights are kinda made redundant by Vargs/Horrors/and mainly Morghasts because each of those can perform the same jobs?

 

[Seneschal]

They are redundant indeed. I need to make mention that Sun King and I used a unit in the experimental dual blender skeleton horsemen bus lists but they can honestly be subbed out for something else after further playtesting.

Lore of undeath
I'd rather summon Vargs or hexwraiths. If I want armored threats, I'll take the T5 Morghasts.

Stalkers are the unit I want to like because they look nice, however, they are indeed very meta dependent. Dwarfs, nurgle DoC, ogres etc

One thing I forgot to leave out is their footprint. They take up far too much room for what they do. GW really should have made them T5 or given them 2+ saves to compensate. They just take up too much room.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Are there situations where NecroKnights fit the bill better than other options? Their footprint is definitely a concern, but kind of a boon as far as modelling opportunity goes--but that's for another subforum.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Are there situations where NecroKnights fit the bill better than other options? Their footprint is definitely a concern, but kind of a boon as far as modelling opportunity goes--but that's for another subforum.

They're certainly not the worst. Their issue is that there are other options out there with more synergy.

For instance, a unit of black knights will probably run you roughly the same cost. However, that unit can a) bunker a vampire lord, b) regains 1+WL wounds per casting of IoN (versus 1 on the necroknights), and c) have a 2+ save and S6 on the charge, rather than a 3+ save and S5 on the charge.

That said, the necroknights have some advantages of their own. At 3 wounds and 5 attacks a piece, they're actually quite durable against anything that isn't really gnawing away at their armour. They're great at fighting rank-and-file infantry, though sadly not many people run such units anymore.

However the REAL benefit of this unit is how great they accept buffs. +1A on the unit nets a whopping +2 attacks per model, or +10 for a unit of 5. Half of those are also at WS4 S5 all the time, which makes them a good grinding unit. If you can make them hit first (light magic, corpse cart) then they can do significant damage before they strike. Also, with multi wounds, they're a good sponge for those Vampires lore attribute wounds. Oh, and never forget those S5 stomps!


The concern is that there are other options that are slightly more efficient at that role. Both morghasts are more durable, though more expensive. Crypt horrors are a bit slower and only S4, but also more durable. Vargheists have the S5, less durability, but are much faster and more maneuverable.

I would say that if you're facing lots of elves, the knights are solid. Durable enough against shooting with 3+ T4, and you can put wounds back onto them reasonably easily by spamming LoV spells. Build around them and I'm sure you can find a way to make them work.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Also in defense of Tomb Kings, they have some other strong contenders beyond the casket:

1) Basically their entire core is better than VC core. Skeletons are better than zombies unless you're doing an invoc spam list. Skeleton archers are a better wizard bunker than zombies, and have a lot of utility in other lists. 3-packs of chariots with the flaming banner are great flank support, and those 6 bowshots can force panic on small chaff units. Plus flaming impact hits are the only thing that can knock regen off before ASF vampires strike.

The only exception is dogs. They're just too fantastic to skimp on. Horse archers are good for a Nagash or gunline list, but dogs are cheaper drops for an aggressive list.

2) Warsphinxes work tremendously with Lore of Vampires. Rerolls to hit on the thundercush attack *wrecks* infantry, and with march and vanhels you can put them into a position to really give your opponent headaches. They'll hold things up for ages if you get your vampires fighting a combat nearby, plunking wounds back onto them with the Vampires attribute.

3) Lore of Nehekhara is actually VERY solid in a BK bus. People know that Invocation is a must-dispel when the bus is getting low, but what about 3 easily cast buff spells that each get d3+1? 5++ is good. +1A is fantastic when it hits red fury vampire lords. And 5+ KB on wights, plus KB period on RF vampire lords, is solid too. Not to mention bringing wounds back AND moving up to 8" with swiftness banner off the sig. Very solid.

The debuffs are good too. -1S/T is always great (though never boost it). And the movement debuff causes DT checks for ANY movement, including reforms, charges, overruns, flees, and non-march moves. Cast it on an important unit then chaff them and they'll have to take those DTs on everything TWICE (once for the charge, once for the post-combat reform or overrun).

4) Speaking of Lore of Nehekhara...has anybody looked at the Golden Deathmask? Terror, no IP, no BSB. Throw that into a BK bus with full command, run 3-wide, and you can effectively protect him just like a Bret damsel. Throw a vampire in there with beguile, fear incarnate, or aura of dark majesty and you're laughing. Terrorgheists screaming at base-leadership monsters is glorious.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

I'm glad synergy came up. Thanks, @Pirate Robot Ninja of Death ! The Construct -1 to Crumble + bsb -1 to Crumble + Morghast -1 to Crumble + Nagash -2 (or is it just -1) to Crumble sounds pretty resilient. I know planning on losing combat has it's own issues, but that's worth mentioning. Also, not to sound like I'm defending them in spite of advice to the contrary. Just trying to get a full arm's length look at the unit. This is all great info, guys. I'm glad there are some TK veterans around to help me with this.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

I'm glad synergy came up. Thanks, @Pirate Robot Ninja of Death ! The Construct -1 to Crumble + bsb -1 to Crumble + Morghast -1 to Crumble + Nagash -2 (or is it just -1) to Crumble sounds pretty resilient. I know planning on losing combat has it's own issues, but that's worth mentioning. Also, not to sound like I'm defending them in spite of advice to the contrary. Just trying to get a full arm's length look at the unit. This is all great info, guys. I'm glad there are some TK veterans around to help me with this.

So I'll admit that my view is a bit skewed, as last time I ran them it was with Ramhotep and a 3+ rerollable armour save, but I found them to be extremely durable (like...chewed through a witch elf deathstar without losing a single model durable).

Definitely run them with std+mus for the extra maneuverability (that huge footprint doesn't turn very quickly), and for the extra +1 combat res from the standard sticking around until the last model. Standard is cool on the flank for wound denial and underdog bonus, but I'd rather have that +1 CR all the way to the last model.

Honestly, they actually do lose combat quite a bit. They're a grinding unit like crushers and demis, but unlike those units they bleed wounds due to their lower save and WS. However it's usually not by much, so the -1 construct crumble actually helps. I wouldn't bother with a BSB unless it's on a mounted WK (and even then...), but running them with morghasts might actually be pretty decent.

 

[Seneschal]

I would say that if you're facing lots of elves, the knights are solid. Durable enough against shooting with 3+ T4,

Elves wreck necro knights. Waywatchers drop them fast and if you are facing the Host of the Eternity King, you'll have RBT's to deal with as well. All wood elf bows and dark elf repeater crossbows are armor piercing so poison shots are also a threat making that 3+ a 4+.

I agree with what you stated about buffing them but your opening line is what seals it for a lot of people, there are just better options.

1) Basically their entire core is better than VC core. Skeletons are better than zombies unless you're doing an invoc spam list. Skeleton archers are a better wizard bunker than zombies, and have a lot of utility in other lists. 3-packs of chariots with the flaming banner are great flank support, and those 6 bowshots can force panic on small chaff units. Plus flaming impact hits are the only thing that can knock regen off before ASF vampires strike.
The only exception is dogs. They're just too fantastic to skimp on. Horse archers are good for a Nagash or gunline list, but dogs are cheaper drops for an aggressive list..

I forgot about the skellies, yes, they are better than vc skellies for being cheaper albeit at the expense of armor and no magic banner.

As far as archers vs zombies goes, I disagree. You can field twice as many zombies and having the ability to summon in more to mitigate damage is priceless.

I find that chariots are very circumstantial and too pricey. I never think to myself that I would rather have them than vargs or hexies to fill particular roles. Yes, they come out of core but I'd rather take dogs or horse archers.

On the Warsphinx
We live in the Time of The Elf (read that in Gandalf's voice) so that 5+ save really isn't protecting much. I don't field Terrorgheists at all since the meta around here is so loaded with artillery and bows and he's much more maneuverable.

I'll concede that Nehekhara in a BK bus is good but I do find the casting values to be rather high.

Discussions are fun

EDIT Ninja'ed by a split second!:ninja:

 

[Adam_Barrow]

I've already got plans for a 3 Kitty monster mash list. Models are in the mail en route as we speak. Getting an extra army all of a sudden has been a blast! Good on you, GW.

 

[The Sun King]

In all honesty, all the vamp army really needs from TKs for undead legion is the casket, maybe a few horse archers and perhaps a heirotitan if you aren't in a shooty meta (and yes I know how to screen and hide but his ability requires him to keep moving). For funsies, a liche or two and a prince/king could be thrown in.

What a glorious occation! I disagree with Seneschal. That is a rare sight indeed. The quote above is in my humble opinion as far from the truth as could be possible. However, I do see the opinion voiced here once in a while. I think the reason is that many players have not adapted (or don't want to which is totally cool) to being Legion players instead of VC/TK players. The UL army is many things but overall I would say that it is a FAST and MOBILE army, this is somewhat different from the Vampire Counts. This means that many options get overlooked because we are biased in a Vampire Counts frame of mind. Back on topic I do like the Necropolis Knights and I play with them once in a while in my highly mobile UL list. They are fast, hit hard, cheap and have good armour saves. But most interesting aspect is that they can be entombed which grants MANY possibilities that we did not have before.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

@The Sun King How do you field your snakes? What sort of tactics do you use with them? The differing opinions on them are really helpful.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Elves wreck necro knights. Waywatchers drop them fast and if you are facing the Host of the Eternity King, you'll have RBT's to deal with as well. All wood elf bows and dark elf repeater crossbows are armor piercing so poison shots are also a threat making that 3+ a 4+.

True, but a full turn of elf shooting will wreck just about ANYthing in our list. Trick is threat maximization, redundancy, and obfuscation. Give them multiple targets to shoot at, and plan contingencies for whichever your opponents picks.

To use my current double-blender, double-varg-4pack list as an example, my plan against gunlines is to jam my bus down their throat at the same time as I set my vargheists up to charge their warmachines. Then I pass the ball to my opponent, essentially saying "Do you gamble on disabling my bus in a round of shooting? Because if you don't shoot the vargs then you're only going to get the one." Crippling the bus will slow their ability to shred the enemy army, but the vargheists will mulch the warmachines then be freed up to support. Knocking out the vargheists means letting my bus hide in combat, and they might not get another chance to shoot at it before it's crippled their ability to respond.

Similar story with necroknights. Yes they're threatening, but they're generally not as IMMEDIATELY threatening as something like a VL bus, a unit of vargheists, or a bunch of hex wraiths can be. If your opponent focuses on them then you can punch through with the rest. If not then the knights will generally absorb a very significant amount of firepower before going down. T4 4+ 3 wounds a piece takes longer than you'd think to chew through.

Add a 5++ off Lore of Nehekhara or a -1 to hit off Lore of Light into the mix and they're even better.

I forgot about the skellies, yes, they are better than vc skellies for being cheaper albeit at the expense of armor and no magic banner.

You can only take one magic banner anyways, and unless you're putting a character into the unit it's not too big a loss (and if you are then you only need one VC unit).

Note that for the same cost as VC skeletons you can buy TK ones, and get the benefit of better LD. The only real downsides are spears and magic banners, and the magic banners are frequently superfluous and spears are garbage so no real big loss.

As far as archers vs zombies goes, I disagree. You can field twice as many zombies and having the ability to summon in more to mitigate damage is priceless.

Yeah but they just sit there. An archer bunker can clear chaff (and can see through just about any unit in the UL army, given how skinny the models are...true line of sight remember), have access to a champion (huge against flying solo characters trying to snipe your mages), and hit back against most things on 4s (meaning they actually fight off fast cav decently well).

I find that chariots are very circumstantial and too pricey. I never think to myself that I would rather have them than vargs or hexies to fill particular roles. Yes, they come out of core but I'd rather take dogs or horse archers.

Then you're not using them right. Chariots are a great little toolkit. A little bit of shooting, raise up really easily, just threatening enough to mess with your opponents plans, and can operate effectively outside of the march bubble (which you can't say about much of anything in UL core).

They can fend off fast cav by threatening 3d6 S4 impact hits, while chipping away at them with shooting. They can crash into the flank of a combat late-game to lend some CR. They can knock regen off of something before vampires get to strike. What more could you want in a sub-200 point core unit?

On the Warsphinx
We live in the Time of The Elf (read that in Gandalf's voice) so that 5+ save really isn't protecting much. I don't field Terrorgheists at all since the meta around here is so loaded with artillery and bows and he's much more maneuverable.

No, but if you don't expose them to a full army's worth of shooting all at once and hold them back a little bit they can take a very substantial amount of abuse before being dragged down. And unlike with TK, where taking just a little abuse was all that was needed to make them manageable, you can put wounds back on them with the lore attribute and you're laughing.

They're not amazing, but they're a very solid anvil against anything without SCR and will thunderstomp the shit out of most things with it.

I'll concede that Nehekhara in a BK bus is good but I do find the casting values to be rather high.

Yeah it's super irritating. Everything in Nehekh is costed as though the casket and hierotitan came free with the list. That said, so long as you don't boost anything it's a very decent supporting lore. Just don't make it your ONLY lore.

 

[Nicreap]

@The Sun King How do you field your snakes? What sort of tactics do you use with them? The differing opinions on them are really helpful.

I am not sun king, but I do run Tomb Kings, and currently painting up 3K for a tournament where I am making heavy use out of them. What I have found works the best is units of 3 with a standard and EBTS, you can go 4 as well, but the goal is you want a single rank, since anything in the back is losing attacks. With EBTS they get to avoid shooting and appear wherever you need them, Ideally threatening flanks and rears of enemy units. The reason for no standard is with EBTS they should be facing what they need to and after combat can reform anyway. The main pointers, as VC players should already, know don't put them in fights with things that bleed CR, and ideally through them at units with <S5. That is where they will shine, and give them lore of light buffs they are even scarier. I play warriors of chaos quite often, and I can routinely break a unit of 3 skullcrushers with a flank, and with lore of light have done it a few times with a rear charge. I have thrown a unit of 3 head first into a unit of 18 khorne warriors with halberds I believe, 6x3, and with speed of light I can routinely knock taht unit down to 6 or so models before they swing, and as long as he doesn't kill a snake they are running from CR. The result is my opponent will run his skull crushers away from my necropolis knights when they arrive. They have so consistently trounced them, that he will change his original plans to get them away from the knights. Which says something to how effective they can be with the right setup and right support.

What they offer is a way to attack the flanks and rears of your enemies that they can't really protect against. Vargheists can do that too, but your opponent can shoot vargheists and account for where you move them, Necropolis knights can literally go anywhere on the board, so unless your opponent sits on his board edge and refuses to move you are going to get a rear or flank charge, and if he does choose to forfeit the movement phase he has already conceded the initiative to you.

 

[The Sun King]

Yeah 3 with Banner and Entombed is the normal way for me. Otherwise I field them 4 with full command.

 

[Demian]

Quick question regarding the Banner of the Hidden Dead:

It reads "Give a 175pts unit (Errataed) the Entombed Beneath the Sands special rule. Then, when it emerges, it's marker must be placed within 12'' from the Banner..."

So... that seems kinda restrictive, since they must be too close to the banner itself, or am I missing something? D:

EDIT: Bad engrish corrected

 

[estwheadn]

I think a unit of 4 or 5 would be much more effective than a unit of 3 with the extra damage output and wounds. Personally I'm holding off on buying tomb king units until I'm sure that VC and TK will be joined together in the next edition. Otherwise you'll be forced to buy the rest of a tomb king's army if you ever hope to use those models again. Conversely just buy them and paint them well enough that you can sell them at cost Knowing myself they won't even get painted till the next edition comes out

 

[Nicreap]

Quick question regarding the Banner of the Hidden Dead:

It reads "Give a 175pts unit (Errataed) the Entombed Beneath the Sands special rule. Then, when it emerges, it's marker must be placed within 12'' from the Banner..."

So... that seems kinda restricting, since they must be too close to the banner itself, or am I missing something? D:

Yep it is as bad and restrictive as it sounds, even worse it's other benefit of adjusting other units to reroll their entering dice rules in 12 isn't good either since to have that not be in front of your army you basically need him in a chariot and charging turn 2.

The issue with larger units is A) you have less room to fit them in when they arrive, and B) they are much harder to maneuver, since you only want one rank. 4 wide is the size of a horde, and while you get all your attacks against 20mm 5 wide, you gain no additioanl advantages against a horde, and putting a model into the second rank means your are losing 3/5 of your attacks, AND those are the 3 attacks that are always S5. If you also consider the fact that your entombed units should be hitting rears and flanks, then against a horde if you flank them, you will likely get to attack with all three for the first round of combat, but the more ranks you drop the less likely you are to even have 3 knights swinging. If you either send them into the right combats in the flank/rear or buff them with light, they should recieve very minimal damage, s the extra wounds aren't as important especailly since you can heal them more than 1 wound a turn, so at most you are looking to put 1-2 wounds back to bring your third knight back up. For the same price as the 4th knight you can get a unit of skeleton horse archers, which can help the rest of your army find optimal angles of attack, your knights should be able to do it anyway. But I am also using 2-3 units in my lists, so if you are only taking one than a unit of 4 may be worth it over 3. The only thing I diagree with is taking the champion on the unit. yes there is a small chance he could get the underdog bonus, but he causes your standard to die first, so in blood and Glory, they don't have to finish off the unit they just have to kill anything but the champion. Although that is more a matter of personal opinion. It is possibleto see necropolis knights go into the same combat as your VL, since he is unliekly to bleed CR, in which case having the champ there to accept challenges would be very beneficial.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

The banner does also give rerolls to entombed units arriving around the banner, no? Sort of like a homing beacon. Could be interesting, as the banner could be used to bring up something from VC along with some other generic TK units. Mix with Lore of Undeath and I think you've got an interesting idea for an army that looks small from afar but doubles in size shortly into the game.

 

[Nicreap]

The banner does also give rerolls to entombed units arriving around the banner, no? Sort of like a homing beacon. Could be interesting, as the banner could be used to bring up something from VC along with some other generic TK units. Mix with Lore of Undeath and I think you've got an interesting idea for an army that looks small from afar but doubles in size shortly into the game.

Yes it does, within 12 inches, but the issue is starting turn 2 thigns are arriving, so unless your BSB, which is the only thing that can take the banner, is either in close combat, or almost in close combat you are unlikely to be summoning units to the flanks or rear of your opponent, and so the biggest issue with the banner is to take advnatage of the rerolls without traffic jamming yourself, you basically need your BSB plus his super expensive banner and light armor, to be running into your opponents face, where he is likely going to die. Although, mounted in a dual vampire bus it could work. the vampires keep him safe in teh second rank, and as soon as you connect with your opponent you are dropping models into their flank and rear. essentially encircling his army, the only question is do you have enough threats on the table at the start to keep him from just shooting the life out of your vampire bus.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Yes it does, within 12 inches, but the issue is starting turn 2 thigns are arriving, so unless your BSB, which is the only thing that can take the banner, is either in close combat, or almost in close combat you are unlikely to be summoning units to the flanks or rear of your opponent, and so the biggest issue with the banner is to take advnatage of the rerolls without traffic jamming yourself, you basically need your BSB plus his super expensive banner and light armor, to be running into your opponents face, where he is likely going to die. Although, mounted in a dual vampire bus it could work. the vampires keep him safe in teh second rank, and as soon as you connect with your opponent you are dropping models into their flank and rear. essentially encircling his army, the only question is do you have enough threats on the table at the start to keep him from just shooting the life out of your vampire bus.

Just run the bus 3-wide. So long as you have a vampire lord in that unit at all they need to kill him AND the champ before he's pushed to the front.