How to fight magic heavy high elves?

[Wolfie13x]

[/align]Having played only 1 game using the new rules (and winning easily) i am now getting challenged to play this weekend 2k against high elves.

I am currently working on my list, and i will post it up once im finished.

But i was wondering if anyone could give me a little advice on how it would be best to combat the high elves. I normally take a very magic heavy army, with the new rules i took 3 vamps and 2 necromancers in my last game and with a few crafty items and vamp powers it worked a treat. However the high elf player i am due to play, he will no doubt have many iteams and such that will make casting for me very difficult. I know because he has told me he will.

I still have to make a list but i was considering surprising him by going heavy cavalry. Black knights, blood knights and Varghulf with maybe some fell bats or wolves. Ive never really made anythign other than a magic heavy list so does anyone have any pointers for me?

 

[RedDuke]

A fast army could play great against the elves as it could limit their natural ability to outmanouver us. At the same time, however, going heavy cavalry against the ASF and high-I elves in 8th edition could put you between the rock of his heavy magic and the hard place of his heavy infantry. IMHO, that could really put too much pressure on your charges.
A nice idea would be to have a lord on hellsteed in the unit of blood knight, able to hunt for his highest level mage. If you want to take forbidden lore, the lore of death should work great (try the fate of Bjuna on his general...). Beast also could bite, especially for the low casting value and the +1 to cast on chariots, cavalries and warbeasts (empower those fellbats now they are beasties!!).
As magic defence with a HtH boost potential I would pick the BC (I do not see the Varghy very effective instead) and 1 or 2 CC ith balefire. Putting some dice on their bound spell you can take away elves' greatest advantage and force him to use some dispel in advance. For the rest of the characters I would go with necros (with counterspell arcane) and wights. Banner of the blood keep, though expensive is a must IMHO against the elves: remember that any character in the unit with a lowly MR(1), from the spellshield or the obsidian trinket makes a 3+ save against magic missiles for the whole unit. Conversely, if you want to bunker a charachter with an average ward in a unit of skellies with the lichebone pennant the ward is +1 higher for just 15 pts. Now that he needs ten models to disrupt your ranks, if you play a refused flank and a strong flank with a block of gg holding the centre you may be able to outrun him. If you manage to control the centre of the battlefield with a robust block and force him into the quadrant where you stroke, that would reduce considerably his speed advantage. An option is to keep some dire wolves and the BC behind your army, to hammer the fast and light units that may try to flank you or rush back in defence.
Good luck and let us know!!

 

[Brian Mage]

Hey, I'm all about the HE shizzle, I love those little pansies!

I'll give this some more thought as to overall tactics as i write, but one thing to always remember when fighting against HE Lords/Heros... They have a complete inability to put out multiple wounds (D3/D6 etc)
Vamp lord with red fury, Sword of plus 3 attacks and +4 ward from "armour of stupid vampire" for 145pts will kill anything, couple with infinate hatred and he's yours.

However, most HE lists are now being built around 1 Arch mage, Annulian Crystal (Stops enemy mnagic phase completly) lv2 support. 3 heros, Mass units of Swordmasters and White Lions and Lothern Seaguards (shooty spears)

Swordmasters need a magic missle to the face- they die so easy to shooting, but in combat will make skellies into dog toys
White lions are awesome, i'm afraid. Stubborn S6 with re-rolls to hit.
Lothern Seaguard will be fighting in at least 4 ranks, with re-rolls too and will shoot the hell out of you
One major nerf to HE's tho is that the Bolt Thrower now has only 2 wounds. its T7 but again a MM to the face will take it out.

KB is a major issue for Helves too. Grave Guard with KB and GW will be awesome. the save for a shield will be negated due to the strength on the attacks you'll face, and GW ASL will not matter, because you will ALWAYS strike last anyway. How ever many models you have of these, use them.
Wight Kings all over the place. BSB for Regen.
If he is an alright player, he WILL outmanouver. very hard to couter. tho a few VHD's can help.

He'll more than likely be using Augment spells on his elves - flaming attacks at S7 T5 is something very much to expect. The more you can smother him in -1 etc to cast the better.

Keep you flanks covered with something that can fight, anything else and he'll chop right through it and over run into the side of unit

Raiseing Zombies might actually help if you can raise some behind enemy lines...

However, like for like HE's are looking much better than VC's right now. It'll be tough but a lot fun

 

[space cowboy]

Black Coach for sure. I can't say Black Coach enough. That thing is amazing for sucking down power dice.

 

[Wolfie13x]

he isnt average HE player. He loves to sit back and let you come to him worse than a dwarf player. Hands behind his bows and bolt throwers and always uses lots of magic. However with new rules he might be a little more daring. Will have to get my black coach out looks like

 

[space cowboy]

Also, I really like the idea of a Lycni/Scout/Nightshroud Vampire. In 2k points, I did it basically with the bare minimum (Biting Blade, Nightshroud, Talisman of Lycni, and Hunter in the Dark) and that should kill war machine crew no problem. You can also use the guy to disrupt his shooting for a turn, but even hitting the side of an archer unit, you are unlikely to cause a break and then he can reform on you with a LD check. He is amazing for hunting war machines though with the new 180 degree line of site rule, you can pretty much get him in your opponent's back line every game.

 

[ghpoobah]

In a 2000 pt game I would be inclined to go for a couple of magic draining Corpse carts, use them as mounts for Necromancers and help reduce the effectiveness of his high elf magic.

Sadly there is nothing you can do against the ASF (plus the inevitable re-roll's to hit) so you will take lots of casualties. I would be inclined to throw blocks of zombies in to tie up his flexible units and back this up with ethereals (yes they might strike first, but that only works if they have magical weapons) Wraiths and spirit hosts have the ability to screen your more vulnerable infantry and are quick enough to nip around flanks and inflict the casualties your Zombies can't.

 

[commissar500]

Page 66 of the bloody heavy book says that ASF vs ASF cancels the re-rolls and attacks are made simultaneously, bring on VHD and the CCs! your I2 skelies can have a go at the same time as the I5 elves

 

[witchking1980]

he isnt average HE player. He loves to sit back and let you come to him worse than a dwarf player. Hands behind his bows and bolt throwers and always uses lots of magic. However with new rules he might be a little more daring. Will have to get my black coach out looks like

If you are sure that he will stay back and wait for you and also that he will go magic heavy then Black Coach and one Balefire Corpse Cart could be two of your choices. As for Close combat I really don't know but I would try to outflank them

 

[Brian Mage]

Posted by commissar500 - Today 12:58 AM
Page 66 of the bloody heavy book says that ASF vs ASF cancels the re-rolls and attacks are made simultaneously, bring on VHD and the CCs! your I2 skelies can have a go at the same time as the I5 elves

I'm afraid this is wrong. The issue comes with the ASF which HE's have. It is not a standard ASF and is called Speed of Asuryan. Its been FAQ'd (post new BHB!) to mean that effectivley they have ASF regardless of weapon choice. So in 8th HE's will still be hitting first 99% of the time.

However remember that Re-rolls to hit only happens if the I value is equal to or higher. So against RaF they get it, but against a Vamp or a buffed unit they do not.

Major tip when fighting HE's. (its these things that cost me the only games i lost) and that is that HE's need to be getting into and out of combat very quickly. Their attrition rate is laughable, everything is T3 (appart from a chariot or dragon) Armour saves are notoriusly low too.
If you can tie up a unit for 3 turns you will have won. Turn one they chop you down, but if you res you units well, you can hit back hard and they can't res, very quicklt their damage output deteriorates.

As said tho, they are nails now and will serioulsy take some beating.

If he has a gun line, stick a massive GG unit with Banner of "you can't shoot me much" (the bloody flag or something) BSB, and couple of Vamps and he will struggle to deal with it.

Makle sure your lord fights his. he will have 4+ ward, so the more attacks the better

I feel all dirty now i've cheated on my beloved Elves...

Oh asuryan, please purge my soul!

 

[Lord Fear]

Read what you're actually replying to Brian, he's talking about two opposing sides both with ASF- nothing whatsoever to do with the ASF+ASL issue

Magic-heavy High Elves are very tough. Watch out for Lore of Life, if people got annoyed at VC players bringing back a few Skeletons or a single Knight per casting in 7h edition, the ability for High Elves to bring back a bunch of elite infantry of powerful Knights while healing their characters is going to be major!