Hyped on Lore of Death

[marshal torrick]

I've been experimenting with a Lord with Forbidden Lore(Death), a hero vamp with F.Lore(Vampire Lore) and Lord of the Dead alongside a WK BSB. It's worked rather well so far with many of the spells either synergizing excellently with our troops or covering gaps in our strengths:

Spirit Leech: Cast by one of the few casters with Ld10? Awesomeness against other mages who tend to be in the 7-9 range.

Aspect of the Dread Knight: Less useful, but Terror against low ld Fear-causers sounds good.

Curse of Laniph, Fate of Bjuna: Both obviously great spells in many situations, such as troubleshooting annoying enemy mages and BSBs.

Doom and Darkness: Combines excellently with our Fear-causing troops, with Spirit Leech and with Banshees.

Purple Sun: Temple Guard blocks? Dwarves? Double Hydras? Enemy Varghulfs? Greater Fire Dragons? All toasted by this spell, usually resulting in a number of free PD. Great little spell, this one.


In addition to the offensive possibilities, you throw Doom and Darkness, Curse of Years and Purple Sun into your enemy, your opponent will be spending most of his PD getting rid of them. Add in a Black Coach, and suddenly enemy magic becomes much more managable. I'm thinking Count Mannfred with Skullstaff and Gem of Blood will be making an appearance in my 'Ard Boys list.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I used a suicide vampire with talismen of the lynci and power scroll with purple sun against ogres today, got onto his left flank and set it of (with irrisitable beacasue of power scroll). Got a 10 on the artillery dice and killed over 1500 points (we where playing 3k). I preceded to offer that we ignore that happened and go back to the start of the magic phase so we could play a proper game after setting up 3000 points. I didn't find the rest of the lore of death that great (not helped by rolling terribly for the winds of magic).

I won the game by the very skin of my teeth.

 

[Strahd]

I think they went wayyyyyyyy overboard with magic this edition. Why even take the time to set up a game when you can lose in the first magic phase due to disgusting spells like purple sun and items like the power scroll. Ill admit I used purple sun my first few games but winning like that was way underwhelming and didnt feel good at all. Im really not liking this new edition so far. Maybe after a few more games with some house rules of banned items/spells it will grow on me....

 

[Zanthor]

Heheh,

Well, I've used Mannfred and the suicide vampire exactly twice now. Now, first let me say that I was too reserved with playing Mannfred, he was always too far back to be useful. But...

Both times I used Purple Sun and the Power Scroll and here's what happens....

1) I MIFCast and take a wound, or do a wound to everybody.
2) I roll a misfire on the die, and it scatters harmlessly away from everyone but the Emo vampire.
3) Emo vampire rolls a 6 and takes his second wound and dies.
4) I get lucky and gain a power die.
5) The MIFCast roll drains all the rest of the power.
6) The magic phase ends
7) I play the rest of the game short by around 200 points.

I did manage to get a purple sun off once (after a lot of arguing about whether or not it can be cast while in HtH) which then killed 2 ogres, but it was still a miscast, and so I lost all my power dice again.

But I agree. This edition seems to be all about putting your models on the table, rolling dice for 2 turns, then going for a drink after you realize how much the game s

 

[marshal torrick]

So the edition sucks because you miscast a bunch of times?

 

[Abbysal]

So the edition sucks because you miscast a bunch of times?

No they say it sucks because:

I think they went wayyyyyyyy overboard with magic this edition. Why even take the time to set up a game when you can lose in the first magic phase due to disgusting spells like purple sun and items like the power scroll.rolleyes Ill admit I used purple sun my first few games but winning like that was way underwhelming and didnt feel good at all. Im really not liking this new edition so far. Maybe after a few more games with some house rules of banned items/spells it will grow on me....

I have enjoyed most games I've played so far but me and my friends tend to pull punches a little in the spirit of the game of course.:zombie:

 

[Pyromaniac]

I can see exactly why GW has done this to the magic phase:

7th edition came out to increase use of the almost non existent 6th edition magic which had the winds of magic making it impossible to rely on magic.

Now they have added the randomness back into the magic phase by having a random number of dice and having REALLY powerful spells but the trade off was capping the total PD you can have (which when i first read though "well there goes the vampire advantage").

They have taken the bite out of irresistible force as well with the mandatory miscast.

So in all they have tried to make it fair for all armies while making magic even more enticing with the added benefit of those obsessed with magic to have lots of chances to blow themselves to smithereens (NB: see Emo Vampire Threads).

Randomness and Power...always goes hand in hand well with rookies.

Im not happy with the 8th Ed magic and no doubt in the near future i can safely expect to have my army bombed a few times by suicidal mages until all these nasty loopholes are closed.

Thank you Games Workshop, you know exactly what we like...

 

[StirogiPerogi]

I can see exactly why GW has done this to the magic phase:

7th edition came out to increase use of the almost non existent 6th edition magic which had the winds of magic making it impossible to rely on magic.

Now they have added the randomness back into the magic phase by having a random number of dice and having REALLY powerful spells but the trade off was capping the total PD you can have (which when i first read though "well there goes the vampire advantage").

They have taken the bite out of irresistible force as well with the mandatory miscast.

So in all they have tried to make it fair for all armies while making magic even more enticing with the added benefit of those obsessed with magic to have lots of chances to blow themselves to smithereens (NB: see Emo Vampire Threads).

Randomness and Power...always goes hand in hand well with rookies.

Im not happy with the 8th Ed magic and no doubt in the near future i can safely expect to have my army bombed a few times by suicidal mages until all these nasty loopholes are closed.

Thank you Games Workshop, you know exactly what we like...

I like the magic system for 8th, and for the reasons you just listed. The magic in 6th and 7th was awful and overpriced. Hardly ever did many a magic slinger ever swing the battle with very many spells; why pay 300 or more points for a character that can be undone by a spell caddy for a third of the price.
Sure the suicide mage is a problem tactic, but only for those who dump loads of points into a few high point cost units. The total power scrolls are great a wrecking people who build lists that are vulnerable to just a few casts. (So the high powered magic phase is great at getting rid of death-star's, but is down right repulsive when used against fodder. No body is going risk a miscast against blasting a skaven slave unit.)

Vampire players probably are best to try and stay away from the 8th edition miscast table. Even a subordinate mage can sink the entire magic phase for the VC player, and even worse is the loss of a magic user to the warp! The loss of any augmentation spells for VC is a killer, and no amount of Purple Sun spam is going to remedy the fact the Vampire troops need the help regardless of what spell school they take. Any VC general that is trying to hinge his game play upon a high risk strategy; such as flying a guy onto a flank and then trying to force a miscast with the Purple Sun is playing with fire and is sure to get burned by a short range, the Sun has an effective range of 0"-30", spell that costs a lot to cast and with a miscast inducing item is sure fire way to either win the game big if the spell does enough damage, or a waste of a useful character points.

 

[marshal torrick]

Yeah, I'm not big on the Suicide-Sun build. Kinda' dirty, and isn't really reliable. That and you won't make any friends.

 

[Gladius Rex]

I can see exactly why GW has done this to the magic phase:

7th edition came out to increase use of the almost non existent 6th edition magic which had the winds of magic making it impossible to rely on magic.

Now they have added the randomness back into the magic phase by having a random number of dice and having REALLY powerful spells but the trade off was capping the total PD you can have (which when i first read though "well there goes the vampire advantage").

They have taken the bite out of irresistible force as well with the mandatory miscast.

So in all they have tried to make it fair for all armies while making magic even more enticing with the added benefit of those obsessed with magic to have lots of chances to blow themselves to smithereens (NB: see Emo Vampire Threads).

Randomness and Power...always goes hand in hand well with rookies.

Im not happy with the 8th Ed magic and no doubt in the near future i can safely expect to have my army bombed a few times by suicidal mages until all these nasty loopholes are closed.

Thank you Games Workshop, you know exactly what we like...

I like the magic system for 8th, and for the reasons you just listed. The magic in 6th and 7th was awful and overpriced. Hardly ever did many a magic slinger ever swing the battle with very many spells; why pay 300 or more points for a character that can be undone by a spell caddy for a third of the price.
Sure the suicide mage is a problem tactic, but only for those who dump loads of points into a few high point cost units. The total power scrolls are great a wrecking people who build lists that are vulnerable to just a few casts. (So the high powered magic phase is great at getting rid of death-star's, but is down right repulsive when used against fodder. No body is going risk a miscast against blasting a skaven slave unit.)

Vampire players probably are best to try and stay away from the 8th edition miscast table. Even a subordinate mage can sink the entire magic phase for the VC player, and even worse is the loss of a magic user to the warp! The loss of any augmentation spells for VC is a killer, and no amount of Purple Sun spam is going to remedy the fact the Vampire troops need the help regardless of what spell school they take. Any VC general that is trying to hinge his game play upon a high risk strategy; such as flying a guy onto a flank and then trying to force a miscast with the Purple Sun is playing with fire and is sure to get burned by a short range, the Sun has an effective range of 0"-30", spell that costs a lot to cast and with a miscast inducing item is sure fire way to either win the game big if the spell does enough damage, or a waste of a useful character points.

Sir... I do not know what experiences you have had, but I disagree with the first half of your statement. I have watched on as High elven Archmages with Lore of Light have cut whole units down to nothing in a single turn...lets not even mention Teclis. I have watched my Curse of Years mow through ranks of expensive Chaos Warriors as I laughed with delight. I have watched my friends morale crash into the ground as VanHels allowed me to redirect my Blood Knights away from their fast cav and reaim them where I wanted them. Ive watched Dark Elves use Pit of Shades and throw 5 dice to make it happen, and Ive seen Warriors of Chaos casters gate units into oblivion...taking poor Vlad down with it.

I would say in most the games I have played prior to 8th ed, Magic has decided 70-80% of those contest.

I this edition is about 2 things.

1. take more emphasis off the characters and put it back onto special and core units (thus the % system, unreliable magic phases, irresistable cast also miscasting now) it makes you have to win combats moreso than before. Also makes fitting expensive Lords, and BSB heroes into some lists less than 3K.

2. Money. in some of my old 7th ed VC lists, if I had 2500 pts in my list, i could have 1200 of it wrapped up in 4 Character models, of which I paid 15 bucks each for. Surrounded by a couple hundred models that i got 10 of for 20 bucks each. With the new rules, you need more core, you need more units to support the bulk core, and those expensive monsterous models just got WAY better... which means you will want them in your lists. Varghulfs, Black Coaches, Abyssal Terrors all got better and are metal models and money money money for GW.

 

[StirogiPerogi]

I can see exactly why GW has done this to the magic phase:

7th edition came out to increase use of the almost non existent 6th edition magic which had the winds of magic making it impossible to rely on magic.

Now they have added the randomness back into the magic phase by having a random number of dice and having REALLY powerful spells but the trade off was capping the total PD you can have (which when i first read though "well there goes the vampire advantage").

They have taken the bite out of irresistible force as well with the mandatory miscast.

So in all they have tried to make it fair for all armies while making magic even more enticing with the added benefit of those obsessed with magic to have lots of chances to blow themselves to smithereens (NB: see Emo Vampire Threads).

Randomness and Power...always goes hand in hand well with rookies.

Im not happy with the 8th Ed magic and no doubt in the near future i can safely expect to have my army bombed a few times by suicidal mages until all these nasty loopholes are closed.

Thank you Games Workshop, you know exactly what we like...

I like the magic system for 8th, and for the reasons you just listed. The magic in 6th and 7th was awful and overpriced. Hardly ever did many a magic slinger ever swing the battle with very many spells; why pay 300 or more points for a character that can be undone by a spell caddy for a third of the price.
Sure the suicide mage is a problem tactic, but only for those who dump loads of points into a few high point cost units. The total power scrolls are great a wrecking people who build lists that are vulnerable to just a few casts. (So the high powered magic phase is great at getting rid of death-star's, but is down right repulsive when used against fodder. No body is going risk a miscast against blasting a skaven slave unit.)

Vampire players probably are best to try and stay away from the 8th edition miscast table. Even a subordinate mage can sink the entire magic phase for the VC player, and even worse is the loss of a magic user to the warp! The loss of any augmentation spells for VC is a killer, and no amount of Purple Sun spam is going to remedy the fact the Vampire troops need the help regardless of what spell school they take. Any VC general that is trying to hinge his game play upon a high risk strategy; such as flying a guy onto a flank and then trying to force a miscast with the Purple Sun is playing with fire and is sure to get burned by a short range, the Sun has an effective range of 0"-30", spell that costs a lot to cast and with a miscast inducing item is sure fire way to either win the game big if the spell does enough damage, or a waste of a useful character points.

Sir... I do not know what experiences you have had, but I disagree with the first half of your statement. I have watched on as High elven Archmages with Lore of Light have cut whole units down to nothing in a single turn...lets not even mention Teclis. I have watched my Curse of Years mow through ranks of expensive Chaos Warriors as I laughed with delight. I have watched my friends morale crash into the ground as VanHels allowed me to redirect my Blood Knights away from their fast cav and reaim them where I wanted them. Ive watched Dark Elves use Pit of Shades and throw 5 dice to make it happen, and Ive seen Warriors of Chaos casters gate units into oblivion...taking poor Vlad down with it.

I would say in most the games I have played prior to 8th ed, Magic has decided 70-80% of those contest.

I this edition is about 2 things.

1. take more emphasis off the characters and put it back onto special and core units (thus the % system, unreliable magic phases, irresistable cast also miscasting now) it makes you have to win combats moreso than before. Also makes fitting expensive Lords, and BSB heroes into some lists less than 3K.

2. Money. in some of my old 7th ed VC lists, if I had 2500 pts in my list, i could have 1200 of it wrapped up in 4 Character models, of which I paid 15 bucks each for. Surrounded by a couple hundred models that i got 10 of for 20 bucks each. With the new rules, you need more core, you need more units to support the bulk core, and those expensive monsterous models just got WAY better... which means you will want them in your lists. Varghulfs, Black Coaches, Abyssal Terrors all got better and are metal models and money money money for GW.

Some armies could bring a real nasty magic phase, High-Elves, Dark-Elves, Vampires, Demons, and even some Warrior builds: However you never-ever-heard of getting beat by Wood-Elf, O&G, or even a Beastmen magic phase. The magic system was skewed towards a few armies, and even those wild phases were able to be controlled, via scroll caddies. Thus only the lucky few could bring a dominating magic phase in which these phases were easily squashed by cheap spam-able magic defeating items. The entire meta-game shifted to anti-magic abilities; such as the Dark-elf miscast ring, spam-able dwarf destroy runes, as a reaction to even compete against some of these top heavy magic lists. With the 7th and 6th edition army lists, you could not spread any of your points across a few elite units, because of "slot" restrictions and thus the weaker caster armies HAD to bring lots of defensive items, or they risked getting their rationed special and rare slots blasted to pieces, and this lead to a division in the tournament rankings: Powerful magic phases forced the opponents to purchase magic nullifying equipment which in general was not priced the same as offensive magic.(20 casting dice versus 7 dispel dice.)

Magic got better because any caster can now melt some faces, albeit with the chance of melting his own face.

 

[Trevy the Great]

A lot of people quote the magic phase being balanced by the randomness and danger of using it heavily - and to that I disagree wholeheartedly:
Random dice can make the phase hell for an army built for magic with a single low roll, but any player taking a lot of magic worth his salt isn't going to leave it all up to chance. Almost every army has an item that can standardize the amount of Power Dice they get - be it Focused Rumination, Sacrificial Dagger or our own Master of the Black Arts. While the number of dice is still random, the effects of a bad roll can be seriously diminished.
The irresistible/miscast combo looks bad on paper, but really isn't. The miscast table is not as bad as it sounds, and I have never seen someone roll up that S10 Large Blast or kill themselves - ever. And believe me you, I have seen quite a few miscasts in 8th edition. besides, with the new infantry rules mean that if a caster is inside a unit, that unit tends to be big and can soak up the casualties of those chance miscasts while the caster survives relatively unscathed (on an unrelated note, I've found that a dirty trick is to put your unit into a building so a blast hits only D6 models ).

Now, bringing the conversation back to the topic at hand - a lot of the Lore of Death spells are very good options, but I have a couple problems with the lore as a whole. I think that the character assassination abilities of the Lore are a little over-emphasized. Does it really need three spells that kill characters? Probably not, but I can let that one fly. Lore of Fire can kill heaps of enemy troops, so this one can assassinated. What do you do when there are no viable targets left?
...
Sit back and shoot the breeze, I guess.
You have no really good buff spells, and the one damage you have is Purple Sun. Don't get me started on Purple Sun.
To late, you did.

I hate to call broken. I really, really do. I never called it on Skaven when I lost a 800 point unit the the Thirteenth spell. I never called it on Warriors of Chaos when I lost entire regiments to Infernal Gateway. I never called it on Orcs and Goblins when they WAAGHED! twice in a turn and attacked me on turn two.
I do call it on Purple Sun. I have seen too many, exquisitely painted armies removed from the table by Purple Sun. I have seen too many generals killed from behind terrain by Purple Sun. I have seen too many perfectly reasonable players walk away from the table because of Purple Sun.
Big units are back into the game, and templates got a lot more powerful under the new rules. These two things make the spells relatively powerful - but template weapons do not trace a five-inch wide path of destruction from the artillery piece to the enemy. If this spell did that, I would not have a problem with it. if it worked like a Warhammer 40,000 Vortex Grenade or a Remains in Play Pit of Shades, I would have no problem. It's the fact that it hits every model under it that gets me - that is far too many models to be reasonable. Initiative - unless you are playing Elves - is also not generally a very high stat, and a lot of times 60-70% of those models are going to die. Bam. Done. Thanks for coming, I hope you have a nice day after we kick you out for throwing your 17 pound rulebook at your opponent in frustration.
How do you stop the unyielding horror that is the Purple Sun of Xereus? You don't - the massive number of dice that your opponent threw at it was enough to cause Irresistible Force, and you can't use a Feedback Scroll if you've been turned into a pretty crystal sculpture.

...

Whoa, that was a rant. I'm glad I got that one out, and without any exclamation points either!!!!1!!!!!!!111!!!11!!!!!!

 

[StirogiPerogi]

A lot of people quote the magic phase being balanced by the randomness and danger of using it heavily - and to that I disagree wholeheartedly:
Random dice can make the phase hell for an army built for magic with a single low roll, but any player taking a lot of magic worth his salt isn't going to leave it all up to chance. Almost every army has an item that can standardize the amount of Power Dice they get - be it Focused Rumination, Sacrificial Dagger or our own Master of the Black Arts. While the number of dice is still random, the effects of a bad roll can be seriously diminished.
The irresistible/miscast combo looks bad on paper, but really isn't. The miscast table is not as bad as it sounds, and I have never seen someone roll up that S10 Large Blast or kill themselves - ever. And believe me you, I have seen quite a few miscasts in 8th edition. besides, with the new infantry rules mean that if a caster is inside a unit, that unit tends to be big and can soak up the casualties of those chance miscasts while the caster survives relatively unscathed (on an unrelated note, I've found that a dirty trick is to put your unit into a building so a blast hits only D6 models ).

Now, bringing the conversation back to the topic at hand - a lot of the Lore of Death spells are very good options, but I have a couple problems with the lore as a whole. I think that the character assassination abilities of the Lore are a little over-emphasized. Does it really need three spells that kill characters? Probably not, but I can let that one fly. Lore of Fire can kill heaps of enemy troops, so this one can assassinated. What do you do when there are no viable targets left?
...
Sit back and shoot the breeze, I guess.
You have no really good buff spells, and the one damage you have is Purple Sun. Don't get me started on Purple Sun.
To late, you did.

I hate to call broken. I really, really do. I never called it on Skaven when I lost a 800 point unit the the Thirteenth spell. I never called it on Warriors of Chaos when I lost entire regiments to Infernal Gateway. I never called it on Orcs and Goblins when they WAAGHED! twice in a turn and attacked me on turn two.
I do call it on Purple Sun. I have seen too many, exquisitely painted armies removed from the table by Purple Sun. I have seen too many generals killed from behind terrain by Purple Sun. I have seen too many perfectly reasonable players walk away from the table because of Purple Sun.
Big units are back into the game, and templates got a lot more powerful under the new rules. These two things make the spells relatively powerful - but template weapons do not trace a five-inch wide path of destruction from the artillery piece to the enemy. If this spell did that, I would not have a problem with it. if it worked like a Warhammer 40,000 Vortex Grenade or a Remains in Play Pit of Shades, I would have no problem. It's the fact that it hits every model under it that gets me - that is far too many models to be reasonable. Initiative - unless you are playing Elves - is also not generally a very high stat, and a lot of times 60-70% of those models are going to die. Bam. Done. Thanks for coming, I hope you have a nice day after we kick you out for throwing your 17 pound rulebook at your opponent in frustration.
How do you stop the unyielding horror that is the Purple Sun of Xereus? You don't - the massive number of dice that your opponent threw at it was enough to cause Irresistible Force, and you can't use a Feedback Scroll if you've been turned into a pretty crystal sculpture.

...

Whoa, that was a rant. I'm glad I got that one out, and without any exclamation points either!!!!1!!!!!!!111!!!11!!!!!!

The miscast chart is huge. I have seen miscasts cause panic tests for 2 units that were caught in its blast. The chart is lethal against magic users and power dice pools. Loose your VC general to the warp, and then see how bad a miscast is for a VC player.

Ah, the rant about the Death, or Amethyst, lore. The Purple Sun is the only spell in the entire school that is worth it; the rest of the spells are short range, have crappy de-buffs, and no useful buffs for very many armies. ( I love when High-Elves bring the Lore of Death as they get no useful buffs or even debuff's; there is no point in fear causing elves as they all ready have a good weapon-skill number so hitting on 3's is still hitting on 3's.) The reality of the Lore of Death is that the big nasty casting armies, Teclis and his crew, get very little from pulling spells from the death lore. Vampires get a decent boost from pulling death magic, and even Demons too, but a vast majority of armies would get no real benefit other than the few sniper spells and the Purple Sun (which is great against low initiative armies).

On to the Sun. The Spell is short range and is random, 0"-30". It is an initiative test. According to the FAQ/new rule errata: The Purple Sun can not end its move on top of a unit, and thus will be placed one inch beyond any unit and this will not result in extra spell hits. The Purple Sun is certainly dangerous to low initiative armies, but it will be tough to justify risking a miscast to kill few models in larger more initiative based armies (Skaven).

The Magic in this edition has been designed to eliminate "the death-star" type of unit. The more players continue to place 2 or 3 characters in one unit of special or rare choice units, the more painful the Purple Sun is going to be.The Purple Sun will be continue to be useful and used often until the game shifts from 6th and 7th edition army construction techniques, (800 or more points in powerful units.) and until the construction of armies shift the selection of the Death Lore will remain a "no brain-er" decision.

 

[Questioner]

Thank you Games Workshop, you know exactly what we like...

Yep. I love it. 7th ed succsess rate =0% 8th ed=100%
Im loving the new magic... 12 powerdice frenzy!

 

[WhiteStar]

I think the character sniping is ace. Both Spirit Leach and the Caress of Laniph are 24" when boosted. Having two death caster lets you pull of four snipings a turn. Most mages don't like that - and once his main dispeller/caster is out, you have a free for all.

Plus, once you get the 'Sun off successfully, you will pretty effectively recharge your PD pool.

 

[Fodderboy]

If I was going up against Lizards, or something else with monstrous cav, I could see death as being fantastic.

Snipe the Steg out from under the crew, and you've seriously de-powered your opponent. Using TLoS, you can get at the frog pretty quickly too.

My concern with Death is that it primarily attacks Ld, and most armies generally run Ld 8+, so I don't believe that Death is as effective (for us) as other lores can be.

Yes you get extra PD whenever you kill stuff(especially multi-wound models), but by the time you're able to use those dice, odds are you've cast a bunch of stuff anyways, so all you've got left is spamming IoN.

Overall, I'll stick with shadows.

 

[Humaneater]

I have a word for everyone who says they like the Magic Phase now. Two, in fact:

1) Slann
2) Teclis

I won't even bother listing more.

To elaborate my point, I won't bother adding more information that we already know about the Magic Phase, talking about how it affects the gameplay for us or whatever. As many of you know, I'm a WoC player. From the release of 8th, I have vowed to only use Lore of Slaanesh, and for my VC's, Vampire Magic, purely because I don't like how the new Lores are designed to be destructive and high risk - i.e. I wouldn't throw power dice recklessly at 15+ or 25+ (or whatever) anyway.

 

[Forge]

I have a word for everyone who says they like the Magic Phase now. Two, in fact:

1) Slann
2) Teclis

I won't even bother listing more.

To elaborate my point, I won't bother adding more information that we already know about the Magic Phase, talking about how it affects the gameplay for us or whatever. As many of you know, I'm a WoC player. From the release of 8th, I have vowed to only use Lore of Slaanesh, and for my VC's, Vampire Magic, purely because I don't like how the new Lores are designed to be destructive and high risk - i.e. I wouldn't throw power dice recklessly at 15+ or 25+ (or whatever) anyway.

Dude! WoC magic is horribly broken! spells that were near impossible to cast back then from that list in the last edition are now the easy versions of everything else. any WoC magic will wreck face.