Idea for spirit hosts and zombies.

[Narp]

Ethereal monstrous infantry? Interesting. I think that 45 pts is about right, considering they're ghosts, but their profile is distinctly mediocre.
I think a far better idea is to use ghost infantry, but you'd be looking at around 20 pts (or more!) per model, so ranked up units would really be unachievable unless you ditched the ethereal rule and replaced it with a rule that just protected them from normal attacks (probably a 4+ ward save), but doesn't protect against magic, like negative magic resistance.

 

[Murphey]

I would just like a rule that makes Steadfast worth something to our army.
For instance: If the undead have more ranks than their enemy, they take no losses from the unstable special rule.

 

[Stealthman]

some very cool ideas in here!

i too have always imagined zombies should be a bit more tough to crack. but having said that, you gotta have warhammers worst units somewhere, and zombies are .... usually 0 points as we raise them!!


BATS!!!! BATS BATS BATS!!!!!! i think bats should maybe have something similar to the hit and run rule from 40k. i dont see how a swarm of bats could STAY in combat!!! afterall bats have to move to keep themselves flying!

OR (my own rant just made me think of this)

what if.... stay with me here.... they have to MOVE THROUGH AN ENEMY UNIT TO ATTACK THEM! and i understand that makes bad bats worse, but when the enemy attacks them back - they have to pass an initative test to be able to strike, and have a max of 1 attack each against them! this turns bats from a tarpit unit to a harrassment unit, which i think they were born to be!

kk im excited now ILL WRITE IT IN RULE FORM!


ahem... SWIRLING MASS: Bat swarms do not engage in combat as other units do. instead when a charge is completed whatever movement value was rolled, the bats move double the value "through" the unit that was charged. this is to represent the bats swooping down through an enemy unit shredding flesh and ripping cloth. during this "swoop" the enemy unit may retaliate - however each attacking enemy unit must first pass an initiative test before they can strike, and have a maximum of one attack each when retaliating (this includes characters) Note: if a unit of 20 models is "swooped" by bats, ALL models in the unit may attack, assuming they pass their I test.

the swoop attack is treated as a single round of combat for the bats, and they may move freely on the next turn.
If a bat swarm is charged no penalties apply for the attacker.


any thoughts?

 

[Vorox]

Hello, good night.
From my point of view.
* Zombies should get full command and a small zombie only magic banner with a Regen save.
This way zombie units you buy in your army list are efficient tar-pits. But those risen by the spells are much more weak. And this way we don't need especial rules and keep things simple.
* Spirits hosts are quite alright with a little magic support. If you really need to improve them, make them ignore armor.
* For vampire swarms simply remove the flight speed restriction.
Thanks for everything

 

[hairyjeff]

Stealthman, Ithink your bat idea could work well,, without over powering the unit. I'll see if I can use it next time I play( sadly, not for a couple of weeks), and try to report back

 

[merenwen]

Stealthman: I like your bat swarm idea, It reminds me of the goblin fanatic rule, I imagine bat swarms to be something like that.

 

[Stealthman]

thanks! i apoligise for being so off topic though! i got excited!

 

[Uziel]

As for Zombie, I always wished for a more relentless, hard to kill Zombie. What we have now in Warhammer is the very weak meat shield that accomplish very little. A few ways you could make this is by bumped their survivability, like if you keep them T2 or 3, give them regen (T2 and 4+ regen, or T3 and 5+ regen maybe), to represent them still going after you battered them to the ground. Or if regen would end up too strong, I'd go with T4 to represent that you'd need to hit them really hard to make them stop from working, as a normally fatal blow, like severing an arm, is of little consequence to a Zombie.

How about Zombies having the same stats as skellies (with a I of 1); and then forcing all successfull rolls to wound from attacks of equal or lower strenght than the Zombie's toughness (3) to be re-rolled?
This would make them more special, without giving them regeneration, which is not really correct according to the fluff anyway.Also, it would give stronger opponents, or opponents with higher strength weapons to wound them as normal, while "normal" (s3) troops would really be struggling to wound them in any great numbers.

As a Side note on zombies, I'd like to see them with a couple of other special rules as well, but that has also come up in other posts. I don't see them as sqouts however, just so that is said. Maybe as a sort of limited Vanguard (6"), as I see necromancers maximising the fear factor, sending waves of former friends and family towards the enemy line, to break their morale.

 

[Uziel]

Hello, good night.
From my point of view.
* Zombies should get full command and a small zombie only magic banner with a Regen save.

How about being able to include the Corpse Cart in the unit (the same way as the Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace), which could grant zombies a regen save instead? That would aslo make the CC a much cooler thing to bring along.

 

[Nagashizzar]

How about being able to include the Corpse Cart in the unit (the same way as the Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace), which could grant zombies a regen save instead? That would aslo make the CC a much cooler thing to bring along.

My idea exactly! The Corspe Cart would be exactly like it is today but instead of having the BP for ASF, it give it regeneration to the zombie unit it joined. Plus it would act like the Grail Replica, you cannot hit it unless it's the last remainning model. This would make Zombie worth taking and could stop any unit for 1-2 turn!

Zombie should be M4, WS1, BS0, S1, T3, W1, I1, A1, LD1 and cost 1 point (with the rule that you must have a another core unit for each unit of zombies) ! (T3 represent how hard is to "kill" a Zombie!)

Imagine the look of the Corspe Cort in the center of 75 zombies

 

[Uziel]

How about being able to include the Corpse Cart in the unit (the same way as the Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace), which could grant zombies a regen save instead? That would aslo make the CC a much cooler thing to bring along.

My idea exactly! The Corspe Cart would be exactly like it is today but instead of having the BP for ASF, it give it regeneration to the zombie unit it joined. Plus it would act like the Grail Replica, you cannot hit it unless it's the last remainning model. This would make Zombie worth taking and could stop any unit for 1-2 turn!

Zombie should be M4, WS1, BS0, S1, T3, W1, I1, A1, LD1 and cost 1 point (with the rule that you must have a another core unit for each unit of zombies) ! (T3 represent how hard is to "kill" a Zombie!)

Imagine the look of the Corspe Cort in the center of 75 zombies

The Corpse Cart in the middle of a proper Horde of Zombies would be awsome

I don't quite agree with your stat assesment though, but that is not becasue I view it as "wrong", but rather because I would like to see stronger and more dangerous zombies. T3 is not excactly the makings of a tough unit by any means, and someone striking back in a Horde formation with Ws1, S1, is going to do next to no damage at all. I'd like to see zombies in the 4-5 pts/model range, not 2-3 pts. But as I've said, that's a matter of how one views zombies. Can't quite imagine then pgysically weaker than the average Swarm however.

 

[Vorox]

Although, the idea of empowering the corpse chart is both fluffy and interesting, I believe it could be problematic. You could buy 2 or 3 CC, and in game raise 2 or 3 zombie hordes with spells.
I love the concept. And it would also give love to a model with poor rules. But It could raise more problems if unchecked.

 

[Uziel]

Although, the idea of empowering the corpse chart is both fluffy and interesting, I believe it could be problematic. You could buy 2 or 3 CC, and in game raise 2 or 3 zombie hordes with spells.
I love the concept. And it would also give love to a model with poor rules. But It could raise more problems if unchecked.

Perhaps I should have specified a bit. Wasn't really talking about giving the zombie unit surrounding the CC full Regeneration, rather on 5+ or most likely 6+. Normal regen could quickly become unbananced yes, and it would make terryfingly cheap tarpits.

The current zombies, although far from being a "good" unit by any definition in 7 ed, has become terrible in 8 ed. I don't like the idea of having a unit that can't effectivly do anything but stand there and line up for the next round of hits.. I would at least like to see them have some sort of tactical use beyond that. It is also a perfect unit fluff-wise to bring back some of the horreorapsect of the army, so if Gw dosn't fix this in 8 ed, I think it will go a long way towards ruining the "feel" of the army for many players.

 

[Narp]

Although it may seem strange at first, I think you shouldn't be able to actually put zombies in your army list :O
Instead, you simply raise zombies using spells (not much different to how we actually play), although I think it would be cool if the Corpse cart could raise zombies in a unit around it (as suggested already, and it is a brilliant idea)as an innate ability instead of a bound spell, so it just keeps on growing and growing and growing........

The reason for this is simply that zombies are made of ROTTEN meat, so imagine what would happen if they went through a massive campaign...... they would end up as skeletons instead. Which is probably better anyway.

 

[hairyjeff]

Going back to Stealthman's idea about bat swarms- tried it against 3000 pt HE , and it works really well. It will never be a game winner, but it is a very useful tactic to interrupt your opponents train of thought and planning. After all he or she is the real opponent, not the models. Nice one.

 

[Uziel]

The reason for this is simply that zombies are made of ROTTEN meat, so imagine what would happen if they went through a massive campaign...... they would end up as skeletons instead. Which is probably better anyway.

This is what I am going for in my little side project, the Legions of Nagashizzar. Also, with a "corpse Pile", where every slain enemy infantry, Cavalry and Monstrous Infantry model is placed to onse side, which allows you to raise "Revenants" (zombies) on a 1 for one basis. Monstrous infantry allows you to raise Hulking Revenants (think zombie Ogres).

For a VC army though, I think Zombies are fine as an initial troop choice, as when they typically go to war, they raise recently dead from graveyards, slaughter small villages before they an be stopped, etc..

 

[Uziel]

A proposal for a Zombie Unit:

Stats:

M 4; Ws 2; BS 0; S 2; T 3; W 1; I 1; A 1; LD 2

Troop Type: Infantry

Special Rules: Undead


Shambling Horde: Zombies press on, without any concern for at all, and are perfectly willing to be gutted by a spear, if they can get a hold of the spear’s owner. For undead, they are also notoriously hard to stop, the necromantic magic infusing their flesh, keeps them fighting, even if they have to crawl to get at the flesh of their enemies. To represent this, every zombie in the unit, directly behind a zombie who is in base contact with an enemy model, may attack as normal. This only works towards the unit’s front as usual though.

Overwhelming: If a unit of Zombies contain at least one rank of five or more models more than their enemies after a round of close combat, the unit may do a free Combat Reform without having to take a LD test. They can only do this as long as they are only engaged from one direction, and they are not allowed to reform, so that one enemy unit (if in contact with two units from the same flank) becomes stranded with no enemy to fight from the Zombie Unit.

Flesh of the Dead: Being a pile of recently dead flesh, Zombies can take quite a bit of punishment before they drop, especially from the blows from typical human-sized enemies. When hit and wounded by an attack of equal or less Strength than the Zombie’s Toughness (usually 3), the attacker must re-roll the too wound roll.

Braaains!: If a unit of zombies don’t start a turn within the General’s Inspiring Presence range, or within 6” of a unit with the Vampire special rule; it suffers from the effects of Stupidity, even though it is otherwise immune to Psychology. This represents them going on instinct, shambling forwards, looking for something to feed on. The zombies may use the LD of any character within the unit for this test.

Eternal Pride: Even in death, Vampires have their pride. No model with the Vampire special rule, may join a unit of Zombies.

Core Choice, No options as far as command group goes, no weapon/armour options, units size 20+, 4 pts/model

Hopefully, I'll get to test them out tomorrow vs. a High elves player or an Ogre Kingdoms player. Don't think they'll do very well against Ogre Kingdoms however

 

[Lynks]

Why not make the re-rolls an all the time thing (fire/ magic weapons negates) and change the stupidity to they follow the rules for frenzy, without benefiting from any additional attacks?

 

[Uziel]

Why not make the re-rolls an all the time thing (fire/ magic weapons negates) and change the stupidity to they follow the rules for frenzy, without benefiting from any additional attacks?

Because that would make zombies too good tactically (the near perfect tarpit unit against all foes) for one thing, and it also fits with the fluff about zombies in my opinion. A normal human is going to have to either cut it's head off, or take it apart piece by piece to get it to stay down; while someone like a Chaos Warroror/Orc Big'Un/Ogre Bull etc, is just going to walse right into the unit, destroying them with ease. I can see zombies being tough to stop with arrows, swords, spears etc, but not with the likes of Ogre Clubs.
This also forces your opponent to make ertain tactical decisions when facing an undead horde; either risking a unit to be tarpitted (and perhaps even slowly killed), or having to use a proper (s4 or more) unit to deal with them.

Being Flammable is more of a mummie thing in my mind, and they have not any particular weakness against magical attacks either (according to the fluff I've read/seen); at least not more than any other unit.
Working on the Corpse Cart, which will grant the Regeneration special rule (probably 6+)to a zombie unit which it joins, and Flammable will be helpfull against this however.

Regarding Frenzy (with no additional attack)vs. Stupidity, I must say that I much prefer Stupidity on them if they are outside the General's IP range/outside of 6" of a Vampire. The purpose is to make them a unit which you have to keep an effective control of, or risk them start shuffling about, looking for meat/brains on their own. Giving them Frenzy, would (even with no additional attack) not really give them much of a disadvantage, as it would most likely allow them to charge normally (LD 2), even though out of an effective control range. Even if it didn't charge, you could tactically do ust about anythig, except March. Not much of a disadvantage, and also much less fitting according to the warhammer fluff in my opinion. Not going for the ravening super-zombie seen in some movies, as this has not been the stereotypical warhammer zombie.

 

[Lynks]

I suggested frenzy as this means they are going to move towards enemy units (they will pretty much always fail and have to try to charge), instead of just wandering past them like stupidity does, as the stupidity move cannot cause a charge. It made more sense for the zombies to be moving towards enemies instead of ignoring them.

 

[Uziel]

I suggested frenzy as this means they are going to move towards enemy units (they will pretty much always fail and have to try to charge), instead of just wandering past them like stupidity does, as the stupidity move cannot cause a charge. It made more sense for the zombies to be moving towards enemies instead of ignoring them.

I understand why you suggested frenzy, and it is decent alternative, but there are some reasons why i found Stupidity to be more fitting:

1. With the new charge distances (2d6+4"), Frenzy and a low LD will allow a unit of zombies to be pretty effective, even otside any control range. Assuming one starts the first round within control range of the general/a vampire, and marches, one pretty much won't need their presence after.

2. I also don't know if Zombies should be the type of unit that automatically flees or overruns, especially when there are fresh cadavers to feed on.

I did overlook the fact that in the new rules, Stupidity can not bring one into close combat, since the 1d6" movement is treated as a failed charge. That was not my intention either. My original idea was to give the unit the Random Movement (2d6, towards the closest enemy unit) special rule, but not sure how well that would work with such a large unit base (thinking horde here)... any thoughts?

 

[merenwen]

Uziel: I like your ideas, I was also thinking about a corpsecart maybe in a unit giving it regen, I pictured the zombies taking the limbs of the dead and sticking them onto themselves to replace lost limbs or something. I also like the stupidity rule, I can see the mindless horde buggering off in the wrong direction, heading off to feast on some recently dead corpses. Those zombies cant be too cheap, especialy if they have the flesh of the dead special rule. you could just replace that with regen if you want to keep the zombies cheap.

 

[Uziel]

Uziel: I like your ideas, I was also thinking about a corpsecart maybe in a unit giving it regen, I pictured the zombies taking the limbs of the dead and sticking them onto themselves to replace lost limbs or something. I also like the stupidity rule, I can see the mindless horde buggering off in the wrong direction, heading off to feast on some recently dead corpses. Those zombies cant be too cheap, especialy if they have the flesh of the dead special rule. you could just replace that with regen if you want to keep the zombies cheap.

I was trying to edit something here a couple of hours ago, but it seemed like the server had a problem.
While I also like the idea of Stupidity, there is a major flaw with it. Didn't read the 8 ed rules for Stupidity well enough. As lynks pointed out, you can't "charge" (i.e. get into close combat) as a relult of this, and that makes it all wrong.
I'm considering changing it into the following instead:

Braaains!: If a unit of zombies don’t start a turn within the General’s Inspiring Presence range, or within 6” of a unit with the Vampire special rule; the unit immediately gets a free Reform which it must use to turn towards the closest enemy unit (measure before the unit is turned). The Zombies also get the Random Movement (1d6+1) special rule. If a non-vampire character has joined the unit, the character may take a LD test to get the unit to move towards any enemy he wants, instead of the closest one, but he can do little else to guide the zombies.

I am aiming for 4 pts/model initially (before game testing).
Remember that most (probably every army in fact) has units capable of ignoring the "Flesh of the Dead" special rule, as one can just go for Halberds, Great Weapons, etc.. The rule is not per definition better than regeneration, especially not regeneration (4+). Against S4 attacks, they have no defense at all, not even armour...
I want to leave the regeneration option open for the corpse cart idea, since Zombies are probably to "humid" to be especially vulnerable to flame weapons in the first place.
Also remember that because of the Unstable rule, the'll probably be romoved much quicker than something like a Skavenslave regiment of the same size, because of the Steady rule combined with Generals Inspiring Presence and perhaps even a BSB).

 

[Stealthman]

hmmm i just had a really cool idea.. it doesnt totally suit slow idiot zombies though, however i think its worth mentioning.

heres a theory zombie profile.. and stick with it, its gonna get pretty crazy

M 3; Ws 2; BS 0; S 3; T 5; W 1; I 1; A 1; LD 3

points cost 2

Hungry dead: zombies are always looking for their next meal. to represent this, roll a scatter dice each turn. this represents the wind direction. trace an imaginary line backwards in the direction of the resulting arrow of the scatter dice from the zombie unit, if this line touches an enemy unit, the zombies have caught the scent and immediately move 10 inches directly towards the enemy unit. ignore friendly units touched by the line, and if a hit is scored on the scatter dice, the zombies may move directly towards any enemy unit with a movement value of 5. if no enemy models are touched by the imaginary line, the zombies may move normally (note the movement value of 3)




so thats my idea. mostly because i feel that zombies should be so dumb that even the vampires have little control over what they do. and it is mostly random. and rly rly cheap.

 

[Uziel]

hmmm i just had a really cool idea.. it doesnt totally suit slow idiot zombies though, however i think its worth mentioning.

heres a theory zombie profile.. and stick with it, its gonna get pretty crazy

M 3; Ws 2; BS 0; S 3; T 5; W 1; I 1; A 1; LD 3

points cost 2

Hungry dead: zombies are always looking for their next meal. to represent this, roll a scatter dice each turn. this represents the wind direction. trace an imaginary line backwards in the direction of the resulting arrow of the scatter dice from the zombie unit, if this line touches an enemy unit, the zombies have caught the scent and immediately move 10 inches directly towards the enemy unit. ignore friendly units touched by the line, and if a hit is scored on the scatter dice, the zombies may move directly towards any enemy unit with a movement value of 5. if no enemy models are touched by the imaginary line, the zombies may move normally (note the movement value of 3)




so thats my idea. mostly because i feel that zombies should be so dumb that even the vampires have little control over what they do. and it is mostly random. and rly rly cheap.

T 5 at 2 pts?? T 5 means Ogres will find it hard to wound them. That's bones of steel to me, and too much of a good thing.

Also, that Hungry dead rule would in most cases (assuming the wind has any effect at al), allow you to move the unit faster towards your opponent's battle line in the first place. Also, there are some game mechanics not considered here, i.e the rules for Charging, Charge Reactions, etc etc...