impact hits + ongoing challenge

[Hanblack Nagash]

Vampire vs daemon prince. No units involved.
I decided to charge my black coach in for extra combat res.

(I forgot it was unbreakable lol)

The question is do the impact hits still happen?

 

[helemaalnicks]

Vampire vs daemon prince. No units involved.
I decided to charge my black coach in for extra combat res.

The question is do the impact hits still happen?

I say no, brb says impact hits are close combat attacks, and under challenges it says a challenger cannot be attacked by another model.

You could also say yes, since the impact hits are distributed by shooting, but again, I think it's not possible. If you chose to not resolve impact hits though, I think your opponent should've let you take the charge back, or warned you about this situation when you declared the charge.

 

[Steapa]

In a combat where there are only 2 eligible models. Does the challenge rule even really apply?

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

In a combat where there are only 2 eligible models. Does the challenge rule even really apply?

The challenge was ongoing but units got wiped oit leaving only the challengers remaining

 

[midean]

You would not get the impact hits against a lone character in a challenge. Unbreakable aside, you could get CR from the charge/flank/ranks against a lone character in the challenge though.

 

[helemaalnicks]

You would not get the impact hits against a lone character in a challenge. Unbreakable aside, you could get CR from the charge/flank/ranks against a lone character in the challenge though.

Daemon Princes are unbreakable, so that doesn't make a difference either...

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

You would not get the impact hits against a lone character in a challenge. Unbreakable aside, you could get CR from the charge/flank/ranks against a lone character in the challenge though.

Yea that was the plan... until i realised my mistake

 

[midean]

You would not get the impact hits against a lone character in a challenge. Unbreakable aside, you could get CR from the charge/flank/ranks against a lone character in the challenge though.

Daemon Princes are unbreakable, so that doesn't make a difference either...

Hence my wording of (unbreakable aside) in another situation you could get CR,,,,,

 

[Skittelz1981]

P 102 under challenges in BRB

Challenges are issued at the start of the combat phase but after impact hits.


Now a challenge ends after each combatphase, no matter if its ongoing, if neither character succeeds in killing the other, the challenge is automatically re-issued in the next combatphase. Which also prevents other challenges.

This means that if you charge your coach in, it will get the impact hits off and the challenge will then continue afterwards.

 

[midean]

P 102 under challenges in BRB

Now a challenge ends after each combatphase, no matter if its ongoing, if neither character succeeds in killing the other, the challenge is automatically re-issued in the next combatphase. Which also prevents other challenges.

Would you care to point out in the rules where is says a challenge ends after each combat phase and automatically re-issued? I don't see it anywhere and on Pg 103 under round 2 it states that the combat continues in the next round.

 

[Skittelz1981]

There is nothing specifically written about that other than the end of the combat round (in which a challenge also ends)

Then in the next round of combat (the bell in the boxingring) the two challengers have to get on with their unresolved fight, prohibiting other challenges from being issued. This is a new round/phase of combat.
A chariot charging into a model (which happens to be in a challengelock) is still causing impact hits. It is still a physical model and impact hits are just there to show how hard that chariot rams into its target. Impact hits are therefore always resolved before challenges and are thus not denied. (its logical, that chariot still hits you, its just not allowed to do all its other attacks)


If you want to argue about it not being RAW, its also not RAW that impact hits are not allowed, since that is not written or specified anywhere.

The only RAW you can go on is that impact hits always happen before challenges. That a round/phase ends (inclusing the challenge) and that with each new round, an unfinished challenge has to be fought again automatically, After impact hits have been resolved.
If you want to imply that a challenged character cannot be hit by impact hits, you might as well imply that a character locked in a challenge is not allowed to be charged, cast magic upon, etc, etc, etc.

Impact hits are there to show the (possible) impact of the chariot when doing its charge. this stands apart form the challenge.

 

[midean]

There is nothing specifically written about that other than the end of the combat round (in which a challenge also ends)

Then in the next round of combat (the bell in the boxingring) the two challengers have to get on with their unresolved fight, prohibiting other challenges from being issued. This is a new round/phase of combat.

That's what I thought. The challengers continue fighting, so there is no challenge ending and being automatically re-issued.

A chariot charging into a model (which happens to be in a challengelock) is still causing impact hits. It is still a physical model and impact hits are just there to show how hard that chariot rams into its target. Impact hits are therefore always resolved before challenges and are thus not denied. (its logical, that chariot still hits you, its just not allowed to do all its other attacks)


If you want to argue about it not being RAW, its also not RAW that impact hits are not allowed, since that is not written or specified anywhere.

Here is where you are wrong. It IS RAW that impact hits are not allowed. In the challenge neither combatant can not be attacked by other models that round. Impact hits are CC attacks. Therefore not allowed. The ONLY way it would work the way you say would be for the chariot to charge in on a combat before any challenges were issued. There the impact hits WOULD effect the character as they would be resolved before the challenge is issued.

The only RAW you can go on is that impact hits always happen before challenges. That a round/phase ends (inclusing the challenge) and that with each new round, an unfinished challenge has to be fought again automatically, After impact hits have been resolved.
If you want to imply that a challenged character cannot be hit by impact hits, you might as well imply that a character locked in a challenge is not allowed to be charged, cast magic upon, etc, etc, etc.

Impact hits are there to show the (possible) impact of the chariot when doing its charge. this stands apart form the challenge.

Actually I'm not implying anything. I'm following the rules as stated in the BRB for challenges. So far you haven't quoted any rules to back up your interpretation. Yeah, sometimes it doesn't make sense. But you really can't go applying logic to a fantasy game. It never works out right....:slapface:

 

[Kromathus]

Page 102 under issuing a challenge. Challenges are issued after impact hits.

Page 102 under fighting a challenge.
... For that round of combat

Page 103 round 2?
... Continue to fight in the next round of close combat

Page 71 resolving impact hits
Impact hits are resolved at the very beginning of the close combat

So it would look like this.

Round 1
Challenge is issued and accepted. Combat is fought and both models live. End combat phase.

Round 2
Chariot charges in, impact hits are resolved at beginning of combat phase. Challenge is started again. If the impact hits kill the enemy character then there is no more challenge lock.

That's my interpretation. Seems legit.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Thank you kromathus for reading properly.
This is the way it is. not differently.


The round of combat ends. giving room for other things to happen, impact huts is such a thing. resolved purposefully BEFORE combat starts again.

It also matches what impact hits are. theyre not attacks made by the model, theyre the impact of the charge by a certain type of unit.
The only reason its resolved in cc is for it to count towards CR. and then they made sure that it will always happen and resolved because it happens before any close combat actually takes place.

 

[bigbadbat]

Where does it say the challenge is suspended between rounds of combat?
Specific language please, not extrapolation.
I'm with Midean on this one.

 

[Skittelz1981]

The combat ends.
The round of combat ends.

This is written all over.

This means that anything that happens before combat, or is resolved before combat takes place anew, simply happens.
It is not an extrapolation, the round of combat ends, period. Before the combat or challenge starts again, impact hits are to be resolved, period. This is written as clearly as possible in the BRB.


Claiming that a challenge blocks impact hits is just as much an extrapolation and interpretation of RAW, since nothing is so specifically stated.
Imo, and to my reading of what Impact hits are (read the Impact hits ruling), and the fact that they are to be resolved before any ohter CC situation, they simply always happen. Whether a model is locked into challenge or not is irrelevant. It gets charged (legal) and gets impacted by the nature of the charge (legal), this has nothing to do with the challenge but has everything to do with the fact that the model charging causes a certain impact. Hence the wording: is resolved before challenges and close combat.

 

[bigbadbat]

So after one of my units is charged in an opponents turn, after combat, if I don't break, I can shoot at the unit in my turn because combat is over until the next CC phase in my turn?
Now, I know this is incorrect, but that is the same reasoning you are using for impact hits being valid on a solo character in a challenge.
It is stated clearly that if in a challenge, no other attacks may be made against a model in a challenge.
That's pretty cut and dry to me...
It also states that the challenge continues until one of the participants is slain or breaks from combat, again cut and dry.

 

[Skittelz1981]

we clearly disagree.

Ive explained my view on it
You hold on to yours.

I can only agree to disagree in this ambiguous ruling.
I can see your pov but i dont think its the right way to play it. You hold on to the fact that challenged characters cannot be attacked.
I hold on to the fact that impact hits are not attacks resolved in close combat but an effect resolved before close combat.


The challenge continues automatically after a round ends. The ending is what i emphasize upon. The round ended in a draw, so the challenge must be fought anew in the next round. This doesnt stop impact hits from happening, since theyre resolved before challenges are fought.
Since BRB doesnt have any sentence that says: "Impact hits can never happen against a character in a challenge" your pov is as much clearcut and dry as is mine.

RAW: challenged characters can never get attacked
RAW: impact hits are resolved before challenges
RAW: after challenge has been fought and combat has been fought, the round ends. Characters that didnt succeed in winning a challenge must automatically continue the fight in the next round. (here again, nothing points towards impact hits not being possible, since they happen BEFORE the challengefight).

So its both interpretation and extrapolation, you guys go one way, some go the other way.

Put it in the light of the battle:
The demonprince locked into challenge because none of the characters can win it, gets charged by a Mortis engine. But because of a challenge, all of a sudden the impact of the charge by the ME doesnt do anything..... So what does that mean? he got suddenly immune to chariots crushing force on a charge? Remember that the impact hits are not attacks the ME can actually do when in cc. It only happens on the charge to show how painful it is when a chariot hits you at full speed when charging. The reason you resolve impact hits before anything else, is to make sure its never denied.

The other side is: A challenge is an honorfight, where 2 characters duel without any interference by others.... but then charging into an honorduel is as retarded as counting the impacthits since charging is basically attacking....
The reason you can charge a model at any time under any circumstance, is because the challenge is re-issued automatically. The ending of the round gives possibility for charges, and thus for impact hits.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Close combat phase breakdown:

round 1:
-start CC
-impact hits get resolved
-challenge is issued and resolved
-challenge ends
-CC is resolved but characters that fought in a challenge cannot be attacked because they were tied in an honorduel.
-CC ends

round2:
-start CC
-impact hits are resolved
-challenge is issued and resolved. characters that were in a challenge that did not end in ones death are to be taken up again automatically, no other challenge is allowed until one of the two dies.
-challenge ends
-CC is resolved but characters that fought in a challenge cannot be attacked because they were tied in an honorduel.
-CC ends

etc, etc, etc

 

[helemaalnicks]

I googled it, and found that it apparently came up in a white dwarf once. Games Workshop's official solution was...

[drumroll]

...roll 1 D6, on a 4+, the impact hits can hit the character in a challenge. Such an elegant solution to the problem :|

 

[Skittelz1981]

Rofl
still sticking to my pov

 

[Kromathus]

I can appreciate both reasonings. The reality of it is, as with most disputes, the answer is not written in stone. I derived my pov from across multiple paragraphs. In this case it becomes raw. However, I've never met anyone who disagrees with it in person. The whole argument of "it doesn't say I can't/can" can be incredibly annoying but has its place. For example, before the FAQ, I argued black and blue that a terrorghiest could not scream into combats itself was not included in... Now don't I feel stupid hahaha

 

[midean]

Rofl
still sticking to my pov

Then I guess there is no point in debating anymore....

 

[Skittelz1981]

well, no. imo impact hits always occur, nothing more to add to all posts i made.
The GW solution is utterly ridiculous, just has the "damn we never thought of that lets just randomize out of retardedness" all over it