Can you summon units into an existing unit if it is not engaged in combat? It states "summons a new unit" which sort of makes me think it always has to be a new unit. This however really lessens the effect of lore of undeath. I summoned 3 units of 3 crypt horrors and I had to charge them into a unit of temple guard....one unit flubbed and then I lost all 3 due to CR rather than just taking wounds on one unit.
In regards to summoning and the lore of undeath
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LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
A new unit has to be its own unit. Only healing spells can increase a unit and only back to their starting size (barring zombies and other special rules)
the lore is mostly just for chaff summoning unless you have arkhan or nagash at the helm. Although technically you can use it to spam summon necromancers with dispel scrolls.
the lore is mostly just for chaff summoning unless you have arkhan or nagash at the helm. Although technically you can use it to spam summon necromancers with dispel scrolls.
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
Why? The maximum rare/special/hero/lord choice is no longer in effect in regards to summoning, why are we arbitrarily deciding the magic item one is still in effect?
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
The same reason we don't count up the points of every summoned unit to make sure we haven't gone over our rare limit.
So you would rule that there's no limit on the number of krells, apophases, or battle standards summonable either? You'd allow more than the usual 3/6 of the same unit to be summonef? Do you allow summoned wizards to roll spells that you have already taken with other casters?
I find this interpretation highly dubious. 'These spells don't work unless we ignore army point limitations on the summoned units, therefore we may choose to ignore all other army limitations as well, even those that have nothing to do with points and wouldn't prevent the spells from working if enforced as normal' does not seem like a very strong case to me.
I find this interpretation highly dubious. 'These spells don't work unless we ignore army point limitations on the summoned units, therefore we may choose to ignore all other army limitations as well, even those that have nothing to do with points and wouldn't prevent the spells from working if enforced as normal' does not seem like a very strong case to me.
I kind of agree with Lord tobiothan, I don't think you could have multiple necros with a dispel scroll, but once a scroll has been used I don't see why you can't summon a new necro with a new scroll, so potentially you could have a new scroll each magic phase if the last one was used in the preceding enemy magic phase
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
Except the spells do work if you don't ignore army point limitations. They don't work as well as you personally assume they should, but they absolutely work.
But because general consensus says the spells don't work that well if you don't ignore those limitations, you, like most, will ignore them. Even if the spells don't tell you to or require you to in order to work.
Doesn't make a strong case to ignore army point restrictions either, and yet because it felt right within your idea of rai and balance you assumed it was ignored by raw which it isn't.
You can't cherry pick. Either new units have nothing to do with army restrictions or they have to follow all of them.
But because general consensus says the spells don't work that well if you don't ignore those limitations, you, like most, will ignore them. Even if the spells don't tell you to or require you to in order to work.
Doesn't make a strong case to ignore army point restrictions either, and yet because it felt right within your idea of rai and balance you assumed it was ignored by raw which it isn't.
You can't cherry pick. Either new units have nothing to do with army restrictions or they have to follow all of them.
Yeah that is true it doesn't say whether any restrictions are used or not, so either all apply or none. I don't think there is any argument to go one way or the other. Might be another one of those, agree with your group rules.
One thing I did notice, if a unit has 5 or more models summoned then it has to be deployed at least 5 models wide! So that means crypt horrors and chariots 5 models wide, could be annoying
One thing I did notice, if a unit has 5 or more models summoned then it has to be deployed at least 5 models wide! So that means crypt horrors and chariots 5 models wide, could be annoying
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
Page 81 of the brb under monstrous ranks: ...wherever the rules say "a rank of five or more models" treat it as reading "a rank of three or more models"...
Would that not fall under this rule?
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
I don't have the TK book either but I think it says something to the effect of working like monstrous infantry.
Only if you deliberately field an army of like 2 or 3 hundred points less than the game size, in order to have room to summon them under your overall game size? That's a pretty different level of 'non-finctional' than 'you still have to respect uniqueness, like only one krell or screaming banner' or whatever.
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
The level at which it affects it's usability is irrelevant. Just because one limitation is more restrictive then the others doesn't provide grounds for only ignoring that one.
You're once again drawing an arbitrary line at what you are willing to ignore based on what you feel works as intended.
I could see the argument of obeying all limitations or none of them. But just the one you deem okay to ignore makes the least sense.
GhoulKing505
Grave Guard
You could argue that since the summoned unit isn't worth any points it can't in fact add to your current point total and therefore the restrictions for how many rare points you can take isn't an issue. This way one can argue that all restrictions stand while still being able to "ignore" the point restrictions for rare and such due to these restrictions never being applicable.
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
That is a dangerous path though, as you are once again deciding when to ignore something for your idea of the rules to work, when it says I can summon 50 points of infantry, and summoned units cost no points, i get 10k zombies right? Or are they only not worth points in order to not have to follow army list restrictions?
The only thing they are stated to be worth nothing for is victory points, after that there's nothing holding up that argument.
Yeah it only states they are not worth victory points, they still have a points cost. It makes no sense that you could have 2 krells and it also makes no sense to be restricted by percentages as you would have more points than 100% as soon as you cast something. But then when have GW rules ever made sense? just because it makes no sense doesn't stop it being RAW. But imo I'd have to say it's either all restrictions or none, but the only argument I can see to sway me either way is that I just can't see tracking percentages working, that would also mean you can't go above your points limit so you can't summon anything until something has died to make room for the points of the summoned unit. So I'm definitely in the no restrictions camp. But that being said I think I wouldn't play it that way, as I do like a bit of reality in my games of plastic toys 
All or none is dumb. The only reason you have to ignore any is that the spells don't work well with some of them, to the point that enforcing the games point limit on summoned units is ridiculous. That's only justification to igmore those some. 'This shooting rule is broken, therefore we must ignore the entire magic phase chapter' is dumb reasoning. 'This magic item doesn't make sense in the rules, therefore its entire faction cannot be played' is dumb also. 'All or nothing' are no less arbitrary places to draw your lines, and in this instance both have absurd results and thus are bad places to draw your line.
GW does not write tight rules. They just don't. So all interpretations must pass through a 'does this make sense / is it reasonable' filter. summoning spells being inherently useless because you already purchased you're full game allowance during List construction isn't reasonable. summoning spells duplicating unique heroes or 1 per army options also is not reasonable. Much as rendering default harbinger useless by letting the sig spell summon characters also isn't reasonable.
I would love for gw to produce tight rules that can be read as raw at face value, but they don't. Go down that road, and you have undead legion tomb kings that cannot join chariot units, undead legion characters in general with no access to parent book items, and so on.
But whatever. If you want to be that way then fine. Rules are in effect unless something else, some other rule, says they're not. It is on you then to find rules text that states summoning ignores uniqueness. The summoning rules say the options that you give summoned units must be legal, and it is not legal to give a character a magic item that your army already has.
GW does not write tight rules. They just don't. So all interpretations must pass through a 'does this make sense / is it reasonable' filter. summoning spells being inherently useless because you already purchased you're full game allowance during List construction isn't reasonable. summoning spells duplicating unique heroes or 1 per army options also is not reasonable. Much as rendering default harbinger useless by letting the sig spell summon characters also isn't reasonable.
I would love for gw to produce tight rules that can be read as raw at face value, but they don't. Go down that road, and you have undead legion tomb kings that cannot join chariot units, undead legion characters in general with no access to parent book items, and so on.
But whatever. If you want to be that way then fine. Rules are in effect unless something else, some other rule, says they're not. It is on you then to find rules text that states summoning ignores uniqueness. The summoning rules say the options that you give summoned units must be legal, and it is not legal to give a character a magic item that your army already has.
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GhoulKing505
Grave Guard
So I guess it's either no restrictions or you cannot summon new units at all. I mean summoning any more units mean you have gone over your maximum point allowance for your entire army. Therefore you can't summon anything at all.
Somehow I'm not buying into this all or nothing argument as the way you see it that's literally what it is. You can either summon everything or can't summon at all.
Somehow I'm not buying into this all or nothing argument as the way you see it that's literally what it is. You can either summon everything or can't summon at all.
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
The major problem with using "reasonable" lines in your rules (and there is a reason that word is in quotes) is that reasonable doesn't exist.
As far as the crazy hobo on the side of the street is concerned this problem can be solved by pawning off all of your pieces and buying booze. So seeing as he feels that is the reasonable solution, should we all play that way?
Reasonable in this instance is just a more argument friendly way of saying "my personal interpretation" which due to the nature of people will not apply 100% with any other person. You can find like minded people who are close, so close you can't tell the difference, but that doesn't mean there aren't always differences.
So unless you are controlling the setting, the only way to play with GW rules when you don't have 2 hours before hand to agree on rules is to follow it by raw. In this case the spell says I can summon a unit of unit type y worth x points and if there are more then 5 models the front rank must have 5 models. That's it, this rule isn't even vague, those are your restrictions. Of all the times to bring up GWs history of non tight rules you pick a rule that covers everything it wants to cover. It just so happens not to cover everything you personally want it to cover.
As far as the crazy hobo on the side of the street is concerned this problem can be solved by pawning off all of your pieces and buying booze. So seeing as he feels that is the reasonable solution, should we all play that way?
Reasonable in this instance is just a more argument friendly way of saying "my personal interpretation" which due to the nature of people will not apply 100% with any other person. You can find like minded people who are close, so close you can't tell the difference, but that doesn't mean there aren't always differences.
So unless you are controlling the setting, the only way to play with GW rules when you don't have 2 hours before hand to agree on rules is to follow it by raw. In this case the spell says I can summon a unit of unit type y worth x points and if there are more then 5 models the front rank must have 5 models. That's it, this rule isn't even vague, those are your restrictions. Of all the times to bring up GWs history of non tight rules you pick a rule that covers everything it wants to cover. It just so happens not to cover everything you personally want it to cover.
Yeah I agree you can't just pick and choose the rules you want to use, that's what house rules are for. And I'll be honest I don't like the RAW in this instance so my gaming group is very likely to use some kind of house rules that we all agree works. But if you are saying no duplicate magic items for example as it states you can not have more than one of each in you army, then that also mean you cannot summon a 3rd terrorgheist as the wording is the same for duplicate rare units. And if you are following those rules then why wouldn't you be using all the rules for army composition. As I say I don't think it's the best way to play it, but I agree Lord tobiothan has the RAW correct, otherwise at the beginning of the game you just couldn't summon anything if you use restrictions.
It obviously can't be all or nothing. You can't have two Krells at the same time because there's only one Krell. This is summoning, not cloning. Now if Krell were to be killed, you can re-summon him. You can have a virtually unlimited number of skeletons, vargheists, TGs, etc. because we know that there are many versions of those throughout the warhammer realm. As far as points go, the summoned units only have points for summoning purposes. Once summoned, they are worth 0 points. Add them to whatever you like, 25% + 0=25%. The only thing people seem to have a real problem with is duplicate magic items and limits for duplicate units (like having more than two TGs in a 2500 pt game). Here is the rule on Magic Items:
So I don't see how anyone can justify having multiple dispel scrolls (or any other magic item) at one time, regardless of summoning. Even then, if you have a dispel scroll in your list, you would never be able to summon one, even if the carrier died. Your original dispel scroll would have to be summoned if you wanted to have any extras and you would have to wait for the summoned character to be killed before summoning the second.
So I don't see how anyone can justify having multiple dispel scrolls (or any other magic item) at one time, regardless of summoning. Even then, if you have a dispel scroll in your list, you would never be able to summon one, even if the carrier died. Your original dispel scroll would have to be summoned if you wanted to have any extras and you would have to wait for the summoned character to be killed before summoning the second.