In regards to summoning and the lore of undeath

[LordTobiothan]

No where does it say the summoned units only have points values for summoning purposes, it only says they dont have points values for one specific instance and that is victory points, otherwise you are just assuming the way you think it works also applies.

And your fluff justifications for items and characters really hold little water in a rules forum section, it is really easy to fluff something in or out of the game based on any one persons interpretation of the fluff. I could easily say that the necro I raised was so old he is actually holding one of the original dispel scrolls as my fluff justification and it wouldn't be any less of a supported stance then your justification, it is all just fiction.

 

[Sception]

The major problem with using "reasonable" lines in your rules (and there is a reason that word is in quotes) is that reasonable doesn't exist.

Yes, that's the reason why a game with tight raw is preferable, but that doesn't change the fact that warhammer isn't that game, and you continue to provide zero raw evidence that summoning ignores the uniqueness restriction on items. If you're going to argue raw, then again, I invite you to actually do that.

Alabaster has provided the raw on items being unique. Provide some rules text that says this doesn't apply to summoning. You want the strict raw, but I don't see anything in raw supporting your position.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Yes, that's the reason why a game with tight raw is preferable, but that doesn't change the fact that warhammer isn't that game, and you continue to provide zero raw evidence that summoning ignores the uniqueness restriction on items. If you're going to argue raw, then again, I invite you to actually do that.

Alabaster has provided the raw on items being unique. Provide some rules text that says this doesn't apply to summoning. You want the strict raw, but I don't see anything in raw supporting your position.

I've given the RAW about a dozen times and only been met with house rules as opposition. The RAW of summoned units is you get a unit of unit type X, worth Y points, anything 5 or more models must be 5 wide and summoned units are not worth victory points.

That is literally it, there is no ignore army building rule X, or include army building rule Y. So it then becomes a question of whether it counts as part of your army or not, which is not specified. If it does count then ALL army restrictions would apply, if they do not count, then none of the restrictions would apply. By the RAW of it, it is all or nothing. Neither RAW stance supports the cherry picking you all want to do.

 

[Alabaster427]

No where does it say the summoned units only have points values for summoning purposes, it only says they dont have points values for one specific instance and that is victory points, otherwise you are just assuming the way you think it works also applies.

And your fluff justifications for items and characters really hold little water in a rules forum section, it is really easy to fluff something in or out of the game based on any one persons interpretation of the fluff. I could easily say that the necro I raised was so old he is actually holding one of the original dispel scrolls as my fluff justification and it wouldn't be any less of a supported stance then your justification, it is all just fiction.

It doesn't matter what you say your necromancer had 1,000 years ago. The rule says you can only have one copy of the magic item in your army. If it's in your list, it's always there, even if you use it or your opponent kills the character holding it. If it's summoned, it's in your army for as long as the model carrying it is alive (used or not).

Victory Points are based on what you spend on the models/units to build your army. Summoned units are worth zero victory points because you spend zero points to include them in your army, but as long as they are on the board, they are in your army.

 

[owain_b]

Size of game rules = the total points value of all models in each players army must come to the agreed limit or less.
So why is this rule ignored but the rule in the picture posted earlier used?

 

[Alabaster427]

Size of game rules = the total points value of all models in each players army must come to the agreed limit or less.
So why is this rule ignored but the rule in the picture posted earlier used?

Because summoned units are worth zero points. So no matter how large the unit is or how many models/upgrades it has, it doesn't contribute anything to your army's points value.

Additionally, when you start the game, you would be meeting this requirement.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Because summoned units are worth zero points. So no matter large the unit is or how many models/upgrades it has, it doesn't contribute anything to your army's points value.

again, where does it say that? it says they are worth zero victory points, they are otherwise worth points for any other instance.

Edit: and no victory points are not based on the units included in your army, they are based on enemy units destroyed. If a scenario gave someone an extra specific unit at the start it would still be worth points even if it wasn't a part of there army list.

 

[owain_b]

Actually it says they are worth zero victory points, which is not that same as points they just have the same value when working out victory points.
And when you start the game you only had one dispel scroll so also meet the requirements

 

[GhoulKing505]

As experience has shown me it is pointless to argue with Tobiothan. He is not one to be swayed and I can respect that. He has his reasons for believing what he does like we all do. This argument is just going to turn into another UL rules argument on what specifically is allowed in an UL army With neither side being the victor. Best to just play it as you feel and if people are willing to play with you then there's no point in changing.

 

[Alabaster427]

As experience has shown me it is pointless to argue with Tobiothan. He is not one to be swayed and I can respect that. He has his reasons for believing what he does like we all do. This argument is just going to turn into another UL rules argument on what specifically is allowed in an UL army With neither side being the victor. Best to just play it as you feel and if people are willing to play with you then there's no point in changing.

Thanks. I kind of figured that out. What I think makes sense seems to be completely non-sensical to others and vice versa.

 

[LordTobiothan]

As experience has shown me it is pointless to argue with Tobiothan. He is not one to be swayed and I can respect that. He has his reasons for believing what he does like we all do. This argument is just going to turn into another UL rules argument on what specifically is allowed in an UL army With neither side being the victor. Best to just play it as you feel and if people are willing to play with you then there's no point in changing.

Now this seems a bit passive aggressively insulting. The moment I enter the Laws of the Night section of the forums I try my hardest to leave my bias behind and only concede a point when the RAW tells me to. I have been swayed many times that you may never have seen because those discussions end up being uninterestingly short due to someone quoting rules I did not see the first few times through, and the conversation ends there with me admitting them correct.

Discussions I am in where i seem immovable are usually instances like this one where the RAW attacks a players principles and admitting they work like they read they do turns something in their stomach. Usually resulting in this running in circles.

 

[GhoulKing505]

I meant no disrespect. I was not at all trying to insult you. Passively or otherwise. I'm sorry that's how I came off.

 

[owain_b]

In tobiothan's defence I really think he is correct on the RAW, but I'm definitely not bias as I don't think it should be played like that. I actually agree it should be played as per the counter argument, but I believe the counter argument is RAI, and that's how my group is likely to play it. I think when rules are as badly written like this all that's important is how you settle it with the people you play with and if you can't roll off