Invocation of Nehek on Blood Knights

[Ashurei]

Look at it this way.

The multi-raise / restore ability works on units with the "undead" special rule.. correct? Last time I checked, vampiric wasnt the same as undead. Each black knight is technically a hero, and since you can't bring a hero back to life after it's dead, what makes someone think they can do that to a blood knight on that scale?

 

[Darkos]

I agree about terrible wording, and also shares the feeling of only 1 blood Knigth per casting.

Even the "ressurrecting fallen warriors" box is contradictory: first says "...if the model is a single character, or chariot, then never can go over it's original wound number..."

And then "...spells and items that restore wounds cannot heal charcaters..."
So what? you cannot get it over initial wounds, or you cannot heal them at all?

Althoug, i'm not be surprised if i found people in tournaments raising uber blood knigth units, from 5 to 5. (and no argument possible, someone writed it into the book... )

 

[Ashurei]

And I quote..

"However, models with the Vampiric, Ethereal, or Large Target special rules can never regain more than 1 wound per successful casting. Wounds gained are distributes as described in Resurrecting fallen Warriors (page 26.).

Page 26: Some magic spells and items can resurrect fallen warriors in an Undead unit by restoring a number of Wound's worth of models to the unit. Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost Wounds cannot heal Characters or their mounts. Of a character has joined a unit, only the unit will recover lost wounds. "



Notice : Cairn Wraiths and Tomb Banshee's are considered characters (Troop Type: Infantry (Character)). this is the same as all Lords and Hero's.

Black Knights : Special rules : Frenzy, Undead, Vampiric.

The vampiric rule will supersede the fact that it is an undead unit. It doesn;t matter what interpretation you choose to use as a BS way to get around it, the rules clearly state that if you have the Vampiric rule, you can only ever regain one wound. Ever. There is really no negotiation or room for interpretation there.

 

[Ashurei]

Darkos, there are spells that allow you to take a wound from an enemy and restore one of your own, and then add Red fury to the ability to regain wounds through combat. I think that's already balaned enough

 

[Darkos]

I know. I just pointing using "characters" in the example (can't go beyond initial wounds), and then disallowing them from healing (spells and items can't heal characters). So, if GW don't want characters to get healed, why they put them into the examples??

And also, the IoN wording for one wound recover is clear. Problem is it says "vampiric MODELS gain one wound" not "vampiric UNITS gain one wound". So for most powergamers, a 5 blood knigth unit has 5 "Vampiric" models, so 5 wounds regained. And very dificult for a tourney referee to defend the oposite...

Also, all units in the book are undead (even the coven throne and mortis engine), no matter if they are vampiric or not...

 

[Vortaine]

And I quote..

"However, models with the Vampiric, Ethereal, or Large Target special rules can never regain more than 1 wound per successful casting. Wounds gained are distributes as described in Resurrecting fallen Warriors (page 26.).

Page 26: Some magic spells and items can resurrect fallen warriors in an Undead unit by restoring a number of Wound's worth of models to the unit. Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost Wounds cannot heal Characters or their mounts. Of a character has joined a unit, only the unit will recover lost wounds. "



Notice : Cairn Wraiths and Tomb Banshee's are considered characters (Troop Type: Infantry (Character)). this is the same as all Lords and Hero's.

Black Knights : Special rules : Frenzy, Undead, Vampiric.

The vampiric rule will supersede the fact that it is an undead unit. It doesn;t matter what interpretation you choose to use as a BS way to get around it, the rules clearly state that if you have the Vampiric rule, you can only ever regain one wound. Ever. There is really no negotiation or room for interpretation there.

Vampiric is a subset of Undead. All vampires are undead, and so cause fear, can only hold as a reaction, immune to psych, crumble, etc, but obviously not all undead models are vampiric. Its been that way, so your statement doesn't really further the discussion.

What you are missing is the wording. Invocation specifies units (and goes into the types of units), while the qualifications and restrictions refer to models. Models make up units, and models can be units if on their own, but a the wording is very clear that models with the rule Vampire only gain one wound back from casting and units of cavalry targeted by Invocation gain 1+Caster Level.

Simple (lol) RAW vs RAI, but the thing is, none of us know what is intended. We know what the last book told us, but none of that really holds up anymore for a variety of reasons, the least of which being a completely different author wrote this new book.

So, while its nice to say "it wasn't intended to be this way," until the FAQ comes out, we don't know what they were intending because they obviously weren't reading it very closely themselves.

Now, in the interest of nipping some arguments and complaints on both sides, go with what we think is intended. I won't say its fair, or right, or whatever, but in the interest of fun and not coming across as a tool (since, that's what these arguments devolve into), if you use Blood Knights in friendly games, just roll with it. Wait for the FAQ, and then do what that says. Its either gonna be awesome or expected.

 

[Sesshouru]

Seeing this discussion made me check out blood knights, IoN, Cairn wraiths and Vargheists. My interpretation is that IoN works this way:

IoN cast on Bloodknights

1st point taken into account: IoN targets units. It then assigns that unit a number of total wounds available to regenerate. To the Overall unit, not to a model. Take into account that it states - "Wounds are distributed as described in 'Ressurecting Fallen Warriors, pg.26'".
This leads onto point number 2

2nd point taken into account: The rules for ressurecting have changed. Nowhere in "Ressurecting fallen warriors" does it state that you must heal a model to it's full capacity of wounds before ressurecting another model, Only that units cannot increase beyond thier original size (Exceptions of course are zombies and skeletons). This adds weight to the blood knights argument, and also brings up an important point.

It's off topic, so I'll make this short. I'll use Cairn wraiths with a banshee as an example in this. Ethereal models may only gain 1 wound from IoN, however, with the new ressurection rules, as long as the unit isnt completely wiped out, you can raise the unit back up to the full number of models - but with re-raised models only having one wound. Again, this is due to the fact that IoN assigns units a number of wounds to ressurect. They can never increase in size however.

I take this second point with a pinch of salt, but really, I can't see it being too powerful. one wound quickly dissapears in 8th ed combat. It would need FAQ-ing. Or if it has, could someone let me know in a PM?

3rd point taken into account: Blood knights = Cavalry - 1+Wizard level wounds.

4th point taken into account: Blood knights = Vampiric - Each MODEL can only gain 1 wound back total.

5th Point taken into account: Blood knights = 1 wound each maximum.

From that you indeed get 1+wizard level blood knights back.

 

[Sesshouru]

And I quote..

"However, models with the Vampiric, Ethereal, or Large Target special rules can never regain more than 1 wound per successful casting. Wounds gained are distributes as described in Resurrecting fallen Warriors (page 26.).

Page 26: Some magic spells and items can resurrect fallen warriors in an Undead unit by restoring a number of Wound's worth of models to the unit. Unless specifically stated otherwise, spells and magic items that restore lost Wounds cannot heal Characters or their mounts. Of a character has joined a unit, only the unit will recover lost wounds. "



Notice : Cairn Wraiths and Tomb Banshee's are considered characters (Troop Type: Infantry (Character)). this is the same as all Lords and Hero's.

Black Knights : Special rules : Frenzy, Undead, Vampiric.

The vampiric rule will supersede the fact that it is an undead unit. It doesn;t matter what interpretation you choose to use as a BS way to get around it, the rules clearly state that if you have the Vampiric rule, you can only ever regain one wound. Ever. There is really no negotiation or room for interpretation there.

Just an input, but Cairn Wraiths and Tomb Banshees aren't characters. Nothing on thier profile, nor in the page assigned to them says they are.

 

[Aramoro]

It's just a slight oversight that will probably get FAQ, yes right now you get 1+Caster Level in Blood Knights but I very much doubt that is the intention and IoN will be errata'd to say vampiric units can only get 1 wound or a simple FAQ saying it doesn't work.

 

[Dead Rat]

In the case of IoN and resurecting fallen warriors, Blood Knights = Vargulf.

Both are not infanrty. Both are vampiric. Neither are large targets.

The only difference regarding the above is one is a single model and one is a unit. That however does not make a difference because neither can be healed above the starting wounds.

So, if the blood knights can be healed at 1+ wizard level, so can the vargulf. (and the Black Coach for that matter)

 

[Sharkyman]

In the case of IoN and resurecting fallen warriors, Blood Knights = Vargulf.

Both are not infanrty. Both are vampiric. Neither are large targets.

The only difference regarding the above is one is a single model and one is a unit. That however does not make a difference because neither can be healed above the starting wounds.

So, if the blood knights can be healed at 1+ wizard level, so can the vargulf. (and the Black Coach for that matter)

1 wound per model :konrad:

 

[Sesshouru]

In the case of IoN and resurecting fallen warriors, Blood Knights = Vargulf.

Both are not infanrty. Both are vampiric. Neither are large targets.

The only difference regarding the above is one is a single model and one is a unit. That however does not make a difference because neither can be healed above the starting wounds.

So, if the blood knights can be healed at 1+ wizard level, so can the vargulf. (and the Black Coach for that matter)

Not so. The black coach and the Vargulf can be "Assigned" 1+wizard level wounds, but only 1 wound can be healed, because of the Vampiric rule. The blood night Unit as a whole is assigned 1+wizard level wounds, yet each MODEL is vampiric, so each MODEL is only healed 1 wound.

E.g If you joined a Vampire onto a unit of Black knights, The knights would be allowed to heal more than one wound (If they had more than one), yet the vampire can only be healed by one wound.

 

[Vortaine]

That's what i said, but he is convinced its the way it was intended.

And for the record, Sephire, I wasn't convinced that is the way it is or should be intended, since I know who you are, and you are referring to me

My point was that in competitive play, you (almost)always use RAW. Whether or not I agree with that is another matter entirely, and I have vociferously argued in the past against such arguments, but, alas, many people (especially at our shop) find the need to apply RAW only when it is convenient. As I mentioned, the old Grey Knights were the bane of my existence in this regard and I was unequivocally against a pure RAW for one rule in particular.

That said, the wording is poor, what it states is befuddled, but from what we can tell, it states exactly what I posted early, and I stand by that. I also stand by my argument that we have no idea what the author intended, and until an FAQ comes out, we won't have a definitive, and even then it is subject to change (for reference on this, see the Chaos Space Marine FAQs).

Now, the important thing is that I am not advocating it is played like this. I won't be playing like this, even if someone would let me play like this.

Take what you will from that, but while I am reasonably happy for the new book, I feel it has numerous spelling errors and is, to be frank, awful to read in some cases (like this rule).

 

[Dead Rat]

Just for the record I will be nerfing myself (as soon as I have enough models to play) to 1 wound for vampiric models and units.

Until of course the appropriate FAQ makes an appearence.

 

[Vortaine]

Just for the record I will be nerfing myself (as soon as I have enough models to play) to 1 wound for vampiric models and units.

Until of course the appropriate FAQ makes an appearence.

Good call. In regards to your previous point about the Vargulf and the Coach, they are not the same as the Knights, as they are multi-wound models.

I would also like to point out that Sesshouru's and mine's point also technically applies to hexwraiths.

And I think Sess also brings up a fairly huge point in his previous post about the way models are brought back. Bring back, say, a few wraiths is alright (each with one wound), but bringing back, say, 5 horrors is a huge boon to any combat where the enemy either has a tough time killing them or they strike first, because you effectively bring back anywhere from 12-15 attacks. It needs an FAQ for sure.

 

[Aramoro]

And I think Sess also brings up a fairly huge point in his previous post about the way models are brought back. Bring back, say, a few wraiths is alright (each with one wound), but bringing back, say, 5 horrors is a huge boon to any combat where the enemy either has a tough time killing them or they strike first, because you effectively bring back anywhere from 12-15 attacks. It needs an FAQ for sure.

This is just people getting a little carried away. Each Wraith can only receive 1 Wound from IoN and as specified in Resurrecting Fallen Warriors all the models in the unit must be at full wounds before you can resurrect another. The best you could do would be to Heal one wound on a Wraith bringing it to full, then raise one on 1 wound and you lose the rest as you cannot heal any more.

 

[Sprru]

I don't see how this needs any clarification. I've noticed everyone is using blood knights and the vargulf as examples. What if we take vargheists into the discussion?

Say you originally had a unit of 6 vargheists and you have lost 3 and one is on 2 wounds currently. You cast IoN. If you follow the rule about 1+wiz level for vampiric units - you would restore the wound on the 2 wound one. In addition you would rez 3 of the second rank vargheists because of the "one wound per model" you guys keep talking about. So now you have a second rank of vargheists all with 1 wound each. You cannot have multiple multi wound models each on 1 wound. So then the models would just combine into a single vargheist. You now have 1 wound remaining to restore. So now you rez another vargheist with 1 wound remaining.

So from a single cast you would restore 1 wound on the 2 wound gheist, and rez one full 3 wound one AND one with 1 wound.

Its pretty clear this wasn't intentional... its pretty black and white to me

 

[Aramoro]

So now you have a second rank of vargheists all with 1 wound each. You cannot have multiple multi wound models each on 1 wound.

What? No no no no no

You CANNOT resurrect a model in a unit which has multi would models who are not at full wounds. What you would end up with is healing one wound on the Vargheist and raising one on one wound, lose the rest. If the Vargheist had taken 2 wounds you would heal one and lose the rest of your IoN healing. That is the RAW in the book.

 

[Sprru]

No that is what I am saying in response to people saying the whole "1 wound per model" suggestion. You should only be resurrecting 1 vampiric wound per cast. I only used the vargheist example to show that it's silly to distinguish individual models in units for the purposes of the spell

 

[Aramoro]

But you're wrong either way, each model only gets back 1 wound. I think i just don't understand what you're getting at so I will gloss over the whole affair.

RAW right now, you can raise back multiple black knights in a single go.

 

[Sprru]

Yeah I don't think I'm explaining what I'm thinking very well. Just seems obvious what they intended but yes RAW you can raise multiple blood knights per cast. Definitely needs an FAQ

 

[GhoulKing505]

Was it obvious what they meant with the greedy fist working with ranged attacks? I think we all should have realized then that we can't just assume what GW intended.

Think about it. If the ogre kingdoms have a cheap trick like that why can't we raise more than 1 blood knights?

 

[Yorga]

On a sad, side note, the Greedy Fist is legal as per GW:

Q: If a Wizard is hit by a ranged attack from the bearer of the
Greedy Fist, does it lose a Wizard Level? (p62)
A: Yes

I personally think our FAQ is going to surprise/shock many of us.

 

[Darkos]

Was it obvious what they meant with the greedy fist working with ranged attacks? I think we all should have realized then that we can't just assume what GW intended.

Think about it. If the ogre kingdoms have a cheap trick like that why can't we raise more than 1 blood knights?

For not talking about the DE item of "all doubles miscast", the Lizardmen item "i throw to you my own miscast" (any range) or the Engine of gods, the infamous ogre's Hellheart, the dwarves anvil (no, no, this is not magic, you can't dispel) or the full range of overpowered creatures in other armies: war hydra, abomination of the pit or steam tank, for example...

 

[The_Peacemaker]

Anyone have access to the book in another language? GW's editing staff and their grasp of the English language isn't very good.

I bet thw spanish or french books would clear this up easily.