IoN and Steal Souls

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok before anyone gets wound up this is not an attempt to bend the rules.

Now IoN can be cast to heal wounds on vamps, 1 per casting.

If I cast steal soul (think thats the right name) from the lore of shadows say over two turns I now have 5 wounds on a Lord.

So the question is if I lose one wound can I heal it with IoN, i.e. is the new wound value now the max value for healing OR is my max value still 3 and I have to wait until my wounds fall under that before I can use IoN?

 

[Lord Fear]

You can use Invocation of Nehek to take you up to your starting value. Same as if you raise your units of Skeletons higher, then lose some...

 

[Jack of Blades]

Also, Steal Soul is from the Lore of Death

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I'm not on the ball today - that's what I get for not having enough sleep............

 

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

Steal Soul is indeed from the Lore of Death. Mannfred has it! and IoN.

IoN does not limit characters to the number of wounds on their profile, only multi-wound rank-and-fire.

 

[mannfred]

Steal Soul can increase the wizards wounds past their starting value and IoN regains lost wounds.

I was thinking about this before. If Mannfred were to cast SS (Steal Soul) and then lose that wound he could regain it with IoN. Same with his Armour increasing his wounds to 5, if he were to lose one of those then surely IoN would get it back, if HE were to 'Vauls Unmaking' it then he would lose those two wounds and I doubt you could get those back with IoN.

Just my thoughts but I think it is legit.

 

[Lord Fear]

I think that is a fairly dubious interpretation... that's the kind of playing that will make your opponents insist you can't raise into combat.

 

[Veland]

I believe EvC is right, but this is another occasion on which we may bash Gav (and playtesters) not to be clear enough with the armybook, which just makes me sad :/

 

[mannfred]

I think that is a fairly dubious interpretation... that's the kind of playing that will make your opponents insist you can't raise into combat.

Sorry i'm not too sure how it is a dubious interpretation, I was merely following RAW. With IoN into combat, I would get their permission beforehand until it is officially FAQ'd.

p.s not trying to stoke any fires, just want clarification.

 

[Lord Fear]

Well yes, that's the point, invocation is about healing wounds you had at the beginning of the game (As is indicated by how you can't raise Skeletons above their starting number without Lord of the Dead- though it does not say it for characters); combine it with Steal Soul and you're using what may be considered by some to be a RAW loophole to gain an extra advantage... just be weary of other players using extreme RAW against you if you use it in this way.

(Another Steal Soul loophole: even if the enemy uses a Ward Save or regeneration to avoid losing the wound, your wizard still gains it! RAW loophole or valid tactic... who knows? )

 

[mannfred]

OK, get your point there, the group of players I game with are very competitive and honestly I prefer it that way, our games are never boring.

We generally do come up with some hair raising tactics (you should try catching my mates WE army-impossible), but it's all in the fun of the game.

 

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

Yes, the same sort of RAW that allows Archaon to count wounds he inflicts on himself as CR for his side.

I'll take any reasonable advantage I can get. IoN + Steal Soul is a complex and expensive situation.

 

[MustEatBrains]

Isn´t there some passage in the rulebook about using common sense in an unclear situation? RAW is fine and all, but I find this issue with healing wounds gained by Steal souls a little dubious (not trying to start a fight, just my oppinion).

Take that example to the extreme: A Vampire gains 2 wounds with steal souls, looses one, gains 2 more next round, and looses 2 again - can he now use IoN three times to regain [/i]a total of 3 wounds (all of which he has lost previously), effectively giving him one more additional wound than he had had before?

 

[darknesseternal]

OK, get your point there, the group of players I game with are very competitive and honestly I prefer it that way, our games are never boring.

We generally do come up with some hair raising tactics (you should try catching my mates WE army-impossible), but it's all in the fun of the game.

This is just my own opinion, and my own point of view, but I just don't see what is 'all in the fun of the game' trying to exploit rule wordings to give you some sort of advantage. I thought, from what was written in the BRB and about how GW see the spirit of their game (it is their game after all), that it was about enjoying the game and having fun.. even if you lose. Sorry, I guess I just said a bad word in saying lose.

Again, this is only my own take and opinion, I just don't see anything fun in playing a game and trying to go for an advantage where I'm going to have to argue with my opponent tooth and nail and flip through the BRB and the army book and argue over wording. That is not my idea of fun, but as I said, just my opinion, it might be yours. I'm not intending any offense either. From what I have seen on these forums, the game is played alot more competitively over there in Europe than it is here in Australia. Or it could just be the gaming groups I have played in. To give you an idea of what I mean, exchanging your army list with your opponent just before the game so you can see what they are fielding, and explaining when they ask what certain things do, is the norm rather than the exception over here.

I'll only say that you might be in for a tough time in a tournament enviroment, as my experience has been with this sort of thing is that they will quickly tell you to pull your head in.

 

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

I'm not sure that there is a common sense answer in this case. Steal Soul + Vampire + IoN is not common!

The wound gained by Steal Soul is permanent and could be healed by other spells; it is effectively added to the model's profile. Accordingly, I see no reason why IoN would not be able to heal these wounds. IoN would presumably heal Mannfred's two extra wounds from his armour.

In any case, the circumstance is fairly rare. You need a Vampire with IoN, one with Steal Soul which will require Forbidden Lore, and you need to get the spells off and have the power dice to do it.

 

[Grish]

Unless you're actually playing with Mannfred, in which the situation would not be that rare.

 

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

Fine if you are playing with Mannfred, then things might be more common. It's still going to suck up a fair number of power dice.

Maybe if this combination works it will turn Mannfred into as common a special character as Thorek.

It seems to be a legitimate combination to me.

The book has not been out for long, we'll have to see how it turns out.

 

[MustEatBrains]

The wound gained by Steal Soul is permanent and could be healed by other spells; it is effectively added to the model's profile.

No, it´s not added to the prfile; in that case it would raise the maximum number of wounds in the profile (like Mannfred´s armour does). It gives a bonus, but does not change the stats themselves.

So, one could argue that, as long as the Vampire is not below it´s maximum as listed in his profile (including modifiers to the statline), it does not count as having lost any wounds. A Vampire might gain 2 wounds above his profile and lose one again, and still he would have a bonus wound of one, not lost one.

 

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

What's the difference between permanent and 'added to profile'?

It lasts for the remainder of the battle, that seems to say that it could be healed.

This seems no different to Soul Stealer or Empire Mages with Death and Lifer, where one can Steal Souls and the other can Gift of Life.

That's a well accepted combination, so I cannot see why Steal Soul/Ion would not be.

 

[MustEatBrains]

That's a well accepted combination,

Is it?

The difference is that wounds below the Vampires maximum are lost, and everything above the maximum is not.

But if you want to play it like that at all costs go for it, I know I won´t.

 

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

Steal Soul and Soul Stealer re-define the maximum, for that battle.

The Steal Soul/Gift of Life makes it very hard to kill Empire Mage Lord General. That ombination has been in use since the beginning of 7th ed and replaced the Steal Soul/Healing Hand combination from 6th ed.

 

[Lord Fear]

It's not something I've ever heard of before, and if I or no-one else hasn't heard of it, then it's not really fair to call it common and suggest we should all have heard of it before. Mind you, if your gaming group (or region, entire country, whatever ) deems that Empire combo acceptable, then of course so should the Steal Soul/ Invocation combo.