Is there a chink in the daemon armor?

[chris_havoc]

Daemons are quite irritating I must admit. One mistake tends to lead towards a loss and when you're not losing against them it's often an uphill battle to get a draw. I've been thinking of a way for the Daemon army to be a little less, well, broken and settled on the conclusion that if their leadership (except for Furies) was lowered by one. I mean it wouldn't break the army's effectiveness at all but it would lessen the effect of stubborn and increase the effect of instability. That's wishful thinking though.

Zombies are always good against Daemons but the Bloodthirster can circumvent them. I reckon a faster list works better against them. The Dire Wolf trap is effective for maybe being able to wrap the thirster up with zombies. Other than that the only problem units are the Nurgle BSB regenerating unit and the Blood Crushers. Well from what I've faced. Never really had a game against horrors or flamers. Apparently they are pretty intense though but playing a fast list it's pretty easy to engage them which renders them less of a threat.

 

[Lord Fear]

If thats how you want it no skin off my nose. If you ask many non VC players they'd say VC are right up there with demons in the don't play that army group.

And I'd agree with them if they were talking aobut the snozofest 15 power dice VC armies. Very few people enjoy playing against armies like that, so I would never try and convince someone to play against such an army. I'm not talking about refusing to play against Daemons outright, just that if there's one player with one army (whether it's Daemons, Vampires or Beasts of Chaos) that you don't enjoy playing against- then don't.

I just don't like giving or hearing the just quit/don't play them advice given to new players. Its all about building up the hobby after all and making our community of gamers grow.

And I can tell you, people who bring the most bent and broken armies they can devise do nothing but put people off of the hobby and end up with very few opponents. I'd much rather see balanced armies encouraged- and yes that can include Daemonic armies.

 

[adrift]

I think the main point here is there have been a number of demonic builds listed as problematic. That just goes to show how many different ways demons can be royally troubling. They have so many power builds, it is silly.

 

[Oronare]

Although I am new, i rather think that VC is quite balanced. maybe it is because I am not playing with a Von C army where my general alone has 4 or 5 PD of their own.

 

[Nelganis]

I can see both sides of this debate...on one side, the game is about just enjoying the fight itself and having fun battling new people and whatnot.

on the other hand, if demon players play just to win then they are little punks. also, its no fun when a person enters a tourney with a rigged list since they almost always end up in the top ranks and thats stupid. i cant stand people like that.

 

[Undying]

i find that the army you play depends on wether you enjoy it, my friend plays deamoms/ as long as the player is not a ..... then playing agianst them is fun! The tactical challenge are quite enjoy able,
Wood elves however are a diffrent thing all together (brother plays them, gods they are good!)

 

[Feyd]

I think this thread is off topic. According to the tile I prefer we talk about how to defeat the Daemons, if you want to talk about playing the game against this person or that person, or label power gamers then please start up another thread. It is terribly dull to read that stuff.

I would like to hear from some experienced generals on how to handle the thirster. It seems we do not have much in our arsenal that can take this guy down, aside from CR. Seeing as I tend to tarpit him and forget him, I would like to hear about what some of you have done to deal with him.

Personally I second the notions that the Daemons strengths are not so much there core infantry. I have no problems dealing with them. Its the Flamers/thirsters/korne hounds. There magic has yet to be a problem as well. For me its dealing with SkullCrusher and the Thirster.

So please lets hear some constructive and helpful advise and get this thread back on track. I think this forum probably has lots of helpful information to offer other players.

 

[adrift]

Who lets their thirster get tar pitted? Not my opponent.

 

[Feyd]

It is not as difficult as you may think. I have had three games where I either created a unit of zombies and danced into him, and then grew the unit big enough to survive a turn. Or use and doggy dragon trap unit then the next turn move zombies into him. Of course this almost always depends on the vamps deployment and anticipation of where he is going to want to send his thirster. Which is not hard at all to anticipate. So much of this game is knowing your opponent, his army and anticipating the strategy.

 

[Lord Fear]

The thing is that stuff doesn't work against Daemon players who know what they're doing. The Dragon Trap is great for catching Bloodthirsters- but only if they fly within charge range of it (and don't kill your Wolves with Flamers same turn). Its real use is to create a massive "no fly zone" and helpdirect where the Thirster can or can't go, and let your troops in that region advance without fear of getting destroyed two turns later. Raising a unit of Zombies and Dansing them into a Thirster is a great idea in theory, but requires a lot of investment:
2 power dice to raise the Zombies
Thirster should kill 5 Zombies a turn, so you need 10 Zombies to start with, plus 10 Zombies for the second turn, so that's 2 additional raisings on them, requiring 4 power dice.
Then you need to Danse him into the Zombies, that requires another 3 power dice.

So far we're up to 9 power dice, and that's without the Daemon player having tried to dispel anything. It also requires you to have all your casters within range of this single area- which means they are also liable to get charged next turn (this can be avoided). I don't know about your opponents, but the Daemon players I go up against with Thirsters tend to have at least 6 dispel dice, and probably 1-2 scrolls as well. Raising and Dansing a massive unit of Zombies into him- not gonna happen. If we're talking about a fluffy Daemon player who has no magic defence, then sure, it may well work. But then they will undoubtedly have additional Flesh hounds standing by to join in the fight.

In conclusion, if you can tarpit a Thirster, it's a wonderful thing. Don't expect a good opponent to ever let it happen though.

 

[adrift]

Add in an opponent that brings Dark Insanity (2d6+2 attacks) + Enduring Hatred and you really have a quandry. He can hack through a lot more than 5 zombies a turn. Plus my demon opponent brings lots of fast stuff. Put something else into the flank of said zombies and they go away VERY fast.

 

[Feyd]

I understand your points. I speak only of my experience. I play tourney competitive armies. My Magic set up allows me to more easily pull of this maneuver then the one you posted but you make valid points. I have played against just about every set up for Daemons one can muster and the thirster is the only one that gives me fits. He is just a pain in the.... Of course strong Nurgle armies can also be very annoying and tough but not quite like the thirster.

The fast stuff I can handle. Concerning yes, but doable. The flamers are not as big a concern with my VC as they are with my Wood Elves but they are still a threat.

So to back on topic how do you two deal with the thirster?

 

[adrift]

I die. lol I havent played him enough to perfect running away yet.

 

[Lord Fear]

Indeed. Last time I played against a Bloodthirster (excluding a game where my opponent was so jammy he actually charged Wraiths on foot in a forest then overran 15" to get fully out of the forest in the next turn), I managed to get two units with Champions into the Bloodthirster, one in the flank, full CR. And he still destroyed both units (with a little help from Flamers flanking one of the blocks) and then my Vampire Lord by the end of the game. Course, he, as seems to happen far too often, did actually cheat and kept treating his BT as if it had S7, when in fact it was only S6 with KB, so wouldn't have killed my Lord (2+ save and Cadaverous Cuirass), so maybe it would have worked without the cheating. Who knows.

Course if you're bringing 13+ power dice and full on caster Lord as Feyd implies, and playing against Daemons with little magic defence, no Banner of Sundering, then trapping a BT is much easier. For the rest of us though... nah.

 

[Danceman]

VS the cookie-cutter lists, no, I do not think there is much of a chink in their armour. You have to hope your opponent makes a mistake and that you're able to capitalise on that mistake. The best way to force your opponent make a mistake is to put pressure on him or her. Creating a situations where charging/moving into is less than desireble(like setting up flank/rear charges, BT-traps and "no fly"-zones). It will be a tough battle regardless so deploy your army with care. Deployment and movement is key. I suppose movement always is key but even more so when it comes to daemons(and DE).

 

[chris_havoc]

I think they're beatable I just don't know how to yet

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I think if your looking for a reliable way to kill a BT, you're not going to find one. Unfortunately is a weakness of VC that we find monsters difficult to actually kill. We can tarpit and hold them up but not take them on head to head.

 

[chris_havoc]

Agreed. Not even if you somehow get a charge off with Blood Knights will you kill it for sure. Wraiths and ethereals are largely useless against it too except for the banshee but even then on an average two dice results in a 7 so the even with the plus 2 the thing is relatively safe. I still stand by my point saying that if the Daemon's ld across the bored was lowered by one except for the flyers the army would be far more balanced. Perhaps bringing it down to at least a VC level.

 

[Oronare]

The thing that gets me is that some of these beasts are huge, fat blubbering things, yet have ASF, as well as a movement the same as Vlad on foot! Vlad is a Vampire lord, and he can only move as fast as a big fat nurgle? hmm, something wrong there

 

[adrift]

If only the Black Axe of Krell (d3 wounds) wasn't limited to wight kings, we would be in business.

 

[Oronare]

So take a Wight King ?

A Wight leading some Black Knights would do some damage. Not sure on the rules, but can a Wight BSB take a non magic banner & a weapon? or are all the banners magic and therefore can not take the Black Axe too.

 

[Lord Fear]

What do you mean by a non-magic banner? No such thing, I think! Other than the flag that makes him BSB anyway, of course. Black Axe is not good when he's mounted, as it's a great weapon so would only give him S5, not enough to do good damage to big Daemons. I used a wight King on foot with Black Axe and he did well, however, helping wipe out an entire unit of Beasts of Nurgle in a single turn (Unit had Flaming banner so no regen for them).

I then went and ballsed that game up by charging my army into his blocks. Flank, rear attacks, numerous flaming attacks (Flaming Black Axe in one side and Balefire Pike in the other) and I lost the combat by 12. What a crap game that was...

 

[Da Crusha]

I killed a bloodthirster with a vampire lord on an abyssal terror and the frost blade, I gave him beguile and infinite hatred and then just made sure I got the charge (hiding behind a forest until the opportunity presented itself). he failed his beguile test and the rest is history, dead bloodthirster. fortunately for me he didn't use obsidian armor otherwise I would've been screwed. also I was lucky because my opponent wasn't exactly a tactician.

I always feel that using the frostblade is kinda cheesy but i was fighting demons!!! almost every list they make comes out cheesy.

 

[slk28850]

I played the bloodthirster list last Saturday.

I killed the bloodthirster by tar pitting it with zombies and then charging with skeletons and used my static combat res to kill it over 5 turns. Meanwhile my bloodknights killed the bulk of everything else. Any list can be beat.

I'm more worried about the Engine of the god list from Lizardmen. You can have 6 EoG and 4 units of skinks in 3k pts. That is with them maxed out so that would be 6 lv3 casters plus magic items. A buddy of mine is taking that to Ard Boyz next month.

 

[doombunny666]

daemons have instability so use it against them also use ghouls u get more attacks and tarpit the greater daemons and heralds with zombs