Issues with adaptive foes. thoughts?

[Ferrum]

Okay so let me begin with the background to this post. I have just fielded my 2,500 points VC list twice over the past two weeks, one victory over VC and Empire with a beastman on my side, and another win against the same Empire dude.

I run this:
LVL 4 lord, forbidden lore vamp, MoTBA, Crown of the damned, helm of commandment. flayed hauberk.
Wight king. Enchanted Shield, SoK, Barded Steed (he rides with 6 barded black knights)
Necro, with staff of damnation.
Necro with book of arkhan.
2 blocks of 30 skeletons
1 unit of ten (bunker)
30 GG with GWs and drakenhoff (killed a lord, 3 heroes and 60 swordsmen in a game :konrad: )
5 wraiths

Now to the point.
My foes have seen the folly of not taking the 10 pt flaming banner. this is bad bad bad news for my GG.
The purpose of this thread is to help me troubleshoot various solutions to this issue and create a new and deadly battle plan/list to deal with an enemy that can not only think, but adapt.

my ideas are as follows:
1. i could drop the drakenhoff all togeather and run a larger unit of GG, 40 should be able to take enough of a beating to last me a game, but they will not win as many combats, which is an issue for sure. This unit would still be a force to reckon with, and he would probably still send his unit of 60 with a 30 detatchment after it.

2. i could add an assasin WK to the unit, this would allow me to swiftly slay his BSB in the first round of combat especially if i use the book of arkhan. This seems very appealing to me for several reasons, the WK could slaughter any RnF, and he could reliably take on BAMF lords and heroes if properly buffed, ex. He killed an arch lector with a 2+ armor save, 5 attacks, and hatred all by himself, no buffs. :grave:

3. i could just scrap the GG and run a massive unit of wraiths, or a 3-4 units of 5 and a black coach to hit him all over the place with ethereal butchers. I like this idea as well because it will be very difficult for some of my other foes to deal with too, for example my WoC foe wil lose so many warriors to them it wont even be funny, especially since he runs mono Khorne :slapface:

4. i could make a crazy gamble and drop the caster lord in favor of a killy one, this offers some neato advantages aswell, this guy would likely go into either a skellie unit or a ghoul unit (skellies with two swords) to spread the damage potential to two blocks, forcing my opponents to reroute their likely powerful flaming unit to deal with one or the other. Choosing the GG could be a deadly mistake, while choosing the lord could be equally as bad.

5. i could use forbidden lore death/shadow and just kill the bastard. this is nowhere near as fun! Regardless of how unsporting this would be it would be equally as effective as the wraiths imo, it could be used agaisnt a wide range of enemies and could be very adaptive since i can switch lores between games without changing my core list.

Thats really all i could think of for now.

i'd be positively thrilled to hear any comments, criticism, or even *gasp* compliments any of you may have.

Thank you in advance

 

[gkgnight]

Okay so let me begin with the background to this post. I have just fielded my 2,500 points VC list twice over the past two weeks, one victory over VC and Empire with a beastman on my side, and another win against the same Empire dude.

I run this:
Wight king. Enchanted Shield, SoK, Barded Steed (he rides with 6 barded black knights)
30 GG with GWs and drakenhoff (killed a lord, 3 heroes and 60 swordsmen in a game :konrad: )

Now to the point.
My foes have seen the folly of not taking the 10 pt flaming banner. this is bad bad bad news for my GG.

how are you taking the drakenhoff banner? You need a BSB to use the banner as it is to expensive for any other unit we have to carry it.

And the wight king cannot take a magic banner if he has magic equipment.


as for point #3... you can only have 2 units of the same rare (3 if playing 3K+ point games). Thus you cannot take 3-4 units of wraiths.

 

[coeur]

Same as above post, and also, you cannot have a lvl 4 lord with forb lore and MoTbA, that is over 100pts of vapire powers.

Also that army seems tiny for 2.5k points.

I have 2x 25 ghouls and 24xGG in 1k points!

I'd suggest more units, you seem to have 2 necros, who could probably keep tw units VDM's each. Don't rely on anything to kill a flaming BSB. Since it is only 10 pts, you'll have wasted it, and anyone with a grain of sense will have more than just that for flaming.

I use lore of light, so against you i would have a ball. 2d6 shem's flaming, to douse your regen for the round, then 3d6 banishment.

I'd suggest dropping a deathstar. Realistically it is a shortcut and people will soon find ways around it. There is a High Elf player at my store, who also uses demons, who uses deathstour ars, he is really cocky, but he also literally throws his models down when you do any real damage to him... Not suggesting you're like him, but the point is that deathstars (imo anyway) are more commonly used by the newer players, or i suppose players who arent challenged by those they play.

Skaven will wreck your day with slaves and plague. Certain missions will lead you into trouble (dont play pitched battle all the time, missions are FUN - except break point). It's not to say i dont use GG, i do, but a 125 pt banner?? You could just have a lord in there with flayed hauberk and blood drinker, and it would be strong enough, with 24 GG.

Or just as I do, 25GG, thrall with forb lore heavens. Banner of Barrws if you fancy it. Cast Harmonic convergance (needs 6+ on yourself, r highger for all in 12 inches).... so you hit on 2's with re-roll 1's. Often kill on 2's with re-roll's of 1's.... I can't help but think having regen, for a unit that is alreadt t4, and can be ressurected whenever you fancy, is a little much.

Especially when the smallest cost of a WK BSB is 200 points... That's 25 Ghouls, or 24 with a ghast. Thats a unit which will wreck stuff... or even a Black Coach, now god have i had some funny times with that this week.

 

[Lord Fear]

Should be no issue. He can only have the flaming banner on one unit, so, just avoid the unit if you must, but even then GG are FAR better than anything in the Empire army (esp. with WS7, +1 to hit, etc), and nothing to worry about.

 

[Ferrum]

At Gknight, the WK was implied, appologies for not including it in the text.

@Coeur
I'm 100% positive that forbidden lore is not 50 points, therefore I can have both.

You made some good points about the Drakenhoff and I liked your idea of more units capable of bringing the hurt. Ghouls would be really a lot better so I'll start modeling some up right now.

However I do think that you dismissed the Drakenhoff a little easily, a 4+ regen is absolutely nothing to scoff at on a unit of elite infantry, not even a mighty horde of troops will be able to get many more than 3-5 wounds on the GG unless said unit is also elite/flaming. In the case of a flaming army your suggestions make sense, to improve the overall combat ability of the unit through buffing. I hadnt even considered taking lore of heavens but I may have to give it a whirl next game, that re-roll ones could be devastating in concert with banner of barrows.

You also recommended a lord with bloodrinker as a substitute? That character would need to be well over 300 points to be able to 1. kill enough to keep the unit strong 2. Survive, theres a lot of stuff out there that makes mincemeat of even a 2+ armor save as you mentioned, and that's likely where my GG would be headed. He would cost several times the price of the Drakenhoff, and he wouldnt be able to do better. This is because he can only protect them whilst they are in cc, shooting and magic will still tear them a new one unless you roll with blood keep standard, or a magic resistance item combo. Against some armies, like WoC, Beastmen, and even Lizards he would rule due to a lack of scary shooting, he would also help to swiftly break those hard blocks of Saurus, chaos warriors, and Gors.

Despite this I think the lord with BD will REALLY catch my opponents off guard, and swapping my skellies for ghouls is also going to make a big difference.

I would need to drop a bit more than just the Drakenhoff to pull this off however, and I do still want at least BotB to be in my GG to give them that extra kick.
Another idea ive had for a while was to put my killy lord into a core unit, this would force my opponent to chose between the Drakenhoff, and the lord. Both are nasty and they won't like either so it should give me more maneuverability and two powerful charges for him to worry about.

@Lord Fear
He runs a MASSIVE block with a warrior priest, a Bsb, and a runefang general. So they are a nice steadfast and stubborn hatred block it's mostly the characters that are an issue so I was considering a WK with sword of antiheroes just to pop them quickly.

That's it for now
Thanks for the comments!

 

[Crovax Accendant Evincar]

Hey I would definatly suggest putting your lord in a core unit of ghouls if you plan on giving him the blood drinker,recently I have had sucsses using a "hybrid" lord,he has red fury,dark acoylte,summon ghouls,flayed hauberk,crown of the damned,blood drinker,extra magic level

Now this guy potentially pumps out 8 str 5 attacks that heal his unit (I put him in a unit of ghouls) being a level 4 he has a good chance of getting van hels,which he casts on his own unit once he's reached combat,this unit has munched through quite a lot with it's re-rolls for poison and the lord healing up the unit

I really belive multiple threats are the way to go,with a set up like this you still have your graveguard and your lord which will have to be neutralised or cause much headache for your opponent good luck

 

[Ferrum]

Thanks for the insight it's really encouraging to see someones positive experience with this! How large do you run the ghouls? Summon ghouls doesnt seem to be worth it if you already run large units, but then again you can use it to save a lot of points in bodies if you need to!

I think I might try keeping the Drakenhoff for one more game and see how he deals with two big bad units. That way he'll still throw points into fire but not be able to stop my momentum all the way, especially if my lord hits his flaming unit first.

I am also debating dropping my wraiths to get another unit of core or maybe a black coach, I really like the wraiths, but just like the Drakenhoff their counters are obvious and easy to squeeze in. I found that they are wondrous for smashing those pesky detachments which often escort empire blocks, and they can wipe blocks of shooters from the face of the earth...but then again so can a BC and it's probably better at it. The reason I'm also considering more core is because of Skaven, ethereal isn't going to be all the scary for them unless I plan very well and more bodies who kick butt might be better, but then again I'd be playing hordes against the army which pretty much invented the horde...

Again thanks for the comments!

 

[Fallen Angel]

I'm 100% positive that forbidden lore is not 50 points, therefore I can have both.

No forbidden lore is only 35p, however MotBA is 50 and to reach level 4 you must spend 30p on dark acolyte =115p =Too many points on vamp powers...

 

[Ferrum]

Ah correct. I'm pretty sure I still rolled for my spells in my games though...so I just lost 35 points and didn't get anytime out of it :slapface: oh well...it's better than cheating I guess!

I always make stupid mistakes like that

 

[coeur]

Fallen Angel quotes correctly, a lvl 4 with MotbA and forb lore is impossible. On a side note, you may say it is a simple matter to avoid the burning banner user, but the very point is that if you are running a deathstar of GG with a BSB (who is vampire or wight king) and your lord as well, you will soon be approaching 8-1100 points in that one unit... So the enemy will outnumber you, so what are you going to use to avoid that single flaming unit? The OP's army list only has two other units, just skeletons in fact...

Also there are alot of spells now which ignore regen and will cause you trouble. Final transmutation, dwellers, dreaded 13th, pit of shades, black sun... I see all of these alot.

There are also plety of ways of getting flaming in without the banner too. My lizardmen army rus the flaming sword of chotek, after all, he strikes first, wouds.. removes regen. Everyone else strikes. Although tbh you'd have more immediate trouble asmy slann loves fire lore lately, but my point is that there are other ways of getting flaming attacks in.

Yes i do dismiss the hoff banner a bit. It's 125 points, on a person who wont be able to take any significant armour because he has a magical banner, and will have every attack aimed at him. And it's all your eggs in one basket. I just feel that deathstars in fantasy are a little too easy to control and avoid. I've played ring o' roses with swordmaster deathstars and khorne-skulltaker-stars enough times to say that with some certainty.

Death lore can also snipe your BSB out of the unit.

The coach works well, though i usually use it to distract and force my pponent to reform to avoid rear charges, etc. It's worth for me is more psychological than damage dealing. Summon ghouls is useful for me at the start of a battle, where i get 2d6 power dice, and dont have a single spell with range long enough... Also with MotBA and Forb lore totalling 85pts... nothing else worth spending those 15pts on...

 

[coeur]

just saw new post, yeah it would be fine im sure, just that if you dont take forb lore, you can ONLY have vampire lore. Just keep that in mind,

 

[Crovax Accendant Evincar]

At first I ran my ghouls In a unit of 40 in a horde but now I prefer to run them 6 wide and four deep,lots off ppl like to run horde units but I'm really not that fond of them,it's good to have them wide if your facing a lot of artillery,then you can reform them before combat starts,maybe with van hels but I kinda see this as a waste,I also use summon ghouls for the same reasons stated above,first turn raising,also I'd like to point out that even with all the new lores I still believe ours is one of the best,van held,curse of years,these are great spells and really easy to cast with a level 4 lord,I've been trying my grave guard with regen and without and vie had mixed results,your right that regen is easily negated but then again if there concentrating on my graveguard then there not shooting up the rest of my army,it's when ppl spread dmg I seem to suffer,because it's harder to res across my army,If they wanna blast my graveguard then go for it,my ghouls and varguulfs can get to them pretty safe and tear there throats out

Also I've found that wraiths if well deployed can be a real pain in the ass for empire,lacking many magic attacks and there great for pinning/killing stanks

 

[Bravo_10]

Have you thought about faking your opponent out? You always run the Drakenhof Banner on the GG, so why not give it to the Wight King on the horse instead? Sure, it won't be nearly as useful on Black Knights, and you may even want to swap it out with the Flag of the Blood Keep for 50 fewer points. My point here is, your opponent will be popping the flaming banner on his big unit of doom, and probably even challenging with the Warrior Priest to try and take down your BSB in a challenge. So, he'll do everything in his power to get this unit in combat, and then he'll discover (to his chagrin) that your WK actually has the Sword of Kings, The Other Trickster's Shard, and the Dragonhelm. Banner of Eternal Flame, you say? I'll see your banner and raise you a 2+ Ward vs. flaming attacks!

Personally, I'm always more afraid when my opponent puts the flaming banner on a missile unit like Handgunners or Crossbowmen. They can take down a Varghulf in one or two volleys, and they'll chew through Drakenhof GG if you're not careful. However, your opponent seems to prefer flaming swords over flaming bullets, so I don't think you have to worry too much.

 

[Crovax Accendant Evincar]

That's a good idea I've tried similar things like swapping it out for blood keep,although a clever opponent will figure this out rather quickly all it takes is one round of firing at the unit,unless you don't mention your getting the 4+ save from the blood keep,if you just roll the dice and every 4+ is a save he may not notice,but I think this is a bit underhand tactic and personally wouldn't donut myself bun up to you

 

[Ferrum]

Bwahaha that's just wicked! I'll throw him TWO curve balls by using the hybrid lord and that dirty trick! Oh I can't wait for this butchery (again)! :konrad:
I also agree Bravo that flaming shooting is much more of an issue, for example, we rolled for terrain and got the anvil of Vaul...this stupid hill gives any units on/near it magical and flaming attacks. I'm sure you can imagine my face when I heard that! However I won the roll off and so took possession of the anvil, refusing to grant it's powers to anyone. Had he gotten it I wouldve been decimated by his two cannons, 40 handgunners and hellblaster.

@Crovax.
I too have seen the uses of wraiths and find them particularly deadly against detatchments, they are usually vanilla troops and if the main block is charges the heroes within cannot react fast enough to join the essentially destroyed detachment.

@Coeur.
I agree will everything you've said there, the banner is an easy counter and it's sort of a noob tube, but then again it's one of the limited ways we can create a truly fearsome unit. Our army book is severely lacking in badarse infantry, seeing as GG are not even close to as scary as some other armies elite troops. Yet we make them equal if not better than almost anything by using what we have, and the Drakenhoff is IMO a useful and totally viable item, it just cannot, I repeat CANNOT be used as a one hit wonder weapon....which is basically what you said

I think it would work very well in the amalgam of items the other posters here have suggested:
Hybrid lord.
Dark acolyte
Bloodrinker
Flayed hauberk
Crown of the damned
Red fury
Lvl 4
Summon ghouls

Replace all the skellies with ghouls.

Swap the Drakenhoff into the knights, or leave it, both will work.
If I swap the banner into the knights then my GG Bsb will have:
Sword of Kings
Other tricksters shard
Dragon helm

I would probably drop several ghouls to take a thrall with:
Helm of commandment
MoBTA
And the bracelets if they fit.

A ten skellie bunker for the thrall.

6 black knights with a variable wight king, they also have the banner of Strigos there already.

Either 4-5 wraiths or a black coach, this would vary on how magic heavy the enemy list is.

If I didn't mind math the points right it's because I don't have my army book since im at school right now!

Feel free to comment on this beast

 

[coeur]

You know if you're running a lord with stupidity, and a BSB in your army, why not toss Konrad in as well. He is a cheap guy, and although ive never used him, i suppose he could be good.

As for the guy who suggested tricking them, dont you have t reveal your list before a game? I know we do at our store, but i just assumed the manager was quoting it as a rule tbh.

I know you do in 40k, in fact i think it says if someone asks for it, and they refuse, it counts as an annihilation victory or something...

BTW - At some point in your life try spirit hosts, ive tried a unit of 3 lately and they are hilarious. Can really mess up people's days, especially if you throw them at a deathstar which doesnt have magical attacks, or a big scary unit of ogre bulls with great weapons.

TBH though, i've never even run a BSB with VC.

 

[Ferrum]

I really only use it to get a tough character holding my magical banner whatever that may be.
Konrad is very cool, but I prefer to use custom characters simply because I feel like they're my own.
In my group you have to have your list in case they wish to see it, but we don't show them to one another per say. Even though we all bounce ideas off one another all the time so the 'secrecy' really just amounts to him forgetting mid battle

I use wind of undeath pretty much every game to get a nice unit of hosts out. I use to tie up nasty cav and heavy infantry. I agree that they're fantastic units, I just wouldn't pay for them!

 

[Gladius Rex]

WHAT????

i am ashamed of you all...

it is COMPLETELY possible to have Forbidden Lore, MotBA, and be a level 4 caster...

they call him Mannfred.


as for the Drakkenhoff - I feel you OP, I feel ya. I too find the added protection of the regen allows me to more easily field my GG with GW and not watch them get senselessly slaughtered. Ive had issues at my game shop where grave guard have not stood up as people on this forum will tell you they will.

It isnt that people here are wrong, it is totally a local custom issue. People at my game shop tend to play a bit different style than what gets represented on here, so I find that Hoff BSB to be invaluable because in spite of my best attempts... my foes really put the focus on making sure i get no IoN or SuH off when they play me. That means that more often than not, if I dont take a Blood Drinker and Tomb Blade, it can be a real struggle. I also happen to play alot of HE and DE, and Dwarves, so they sort of seem to be able to throw a real wrench in my magic phase.

My best advice would still, however, be to not fully deathstar the GG out. Having the BSB in your GG is fine, but it doesnt mean drop your Lord in there also. I have found that a balanced attack will if nothing else divide up the attention of shooting and incoming magic missles amongst different groups, which will help your characters survive.

Just dont fail those Look Out Sir rolls. Flamming banners will happen. Lore of Fire will happen Every now and then, change it up and put the BLood Keep banner as your BSB. Wont protect you in close combat, but will keep your opponents honest if you play amongst a small group and play the same people frequently. I did that a few times and the Lore of Fire and Flamming Banners dissappeared. Especially when I loaded up my lord with one of them there fancy 2+ ward vs fire saves they offer in the BRB.

 

[Ferrum]

Hehe mannfred, the only time I've seen him used he miscast and made himself a lvl 1 for the rest of the game. That was quite amusing! I can totally see how the elves and dwarves could keep you down and needed the Drakenhoff. They get so many dispel dice

I am running my wight king assessin with a 2+ ward against fire so that he can slaughter enemy heroes who foolishly took a flaming weapon/banner. I can't with for the look on their faces when they see that!! "hey what're his stats?" "well he's S4 T5 2+ and a 2+ to you " "uhhhh what?" :konrad:

 

[Lynks]

a personal favourite of mine to deal with those pesky heralds of khorne or bretonian lords/ paladins

Vampire Lord
+1 magic level
Dark acolyte
avatar of death
infinite hatred or walking death
beguile

crown of the damned
flayed hauberk
cadaverous curiass

and an ogre blade, sword of strife or sword of anti heroes to taste

almost always my general's unit is targeted by some big foe that aims to one shot my lovely vampire, and this is a good method to teach them the error of their ways. with vanhels or a corpse cart nearby, you strike first, re-roll to hit and to wound (they are pretty doomed to fail their leadership) at either a high strength, a large number of attacks, or an improved amount of both. they are certainly unlikely to survive.

and you still have a level 4 to boot!. this is a relatively adaptive vampire i have found.

 

[Ferrum]

That's definitely a cool vampire! I like that you've used beguile, tbh I hadn't even looked at that section of Vampiric powers when making my lord
They are all cool abilities so I think I'll be taking a closer look at them!

I see that you didn't take red fury though, is that because this lord is more of an assassin? Since red fury is a bit of an overkill against most characters unless they're really really hard to crack. The ogre blade is my favorite of the three you mentioned, it just makes our lords so terrifying in CC! The sword of antiheroes would be great fun for me since my opponent usually have 3+ characters in his massive block unit. My lord getting +3S +3A would be awesome, but I think it's too circumstantial and is sorta tailoring.

Thanks for the input Lynks! I appreciate it

 

[Lynks]

I find that with my horrible rolling, red fury barely ever gives me the extra attacks that it should, so i go for stacking on the re-rolls instead

 

[Ferrum]

Thats a good point, but there are other ways to get rerolls than with infinite hatred, VHD for example does that and I usually have a book of Arkhan handy so I can cast that into combats where it is needed most. Personally I just think that red fury is terrifying, and the look on an opponents face after you've dealt him a dozen wounds and suddenly your unit has grown by a dozen (bloodrinker) is priceless!

 

[Gladius Rex]

not to mention that unlike Frenzy... Red Fury has practically no negative other than its cost. You dont have to make ld checks to not charge yet you get more bonus than if it were just Frenzy.

Alot of people i know would pay close to 50 points to make a hero frenzy, let alone gain the type of bonus that Red Fury gives.

 

[Ferrum]

Agreed. It seems only fair though given the freightful risk that we all take when we use a lord for combat. Because as you said if you roll poorly those 50 points are wasted, and your lord could easily be killed, based on that I think it's priced somewhat fairly.

I have another question though, of the lores we can access which do you think is the most versatile? Besides lore of vampires of course. I was thinking either beasts or perhaps metal. Since they can both be devastating and the can buff very well too.