kastellan with balefire spike vs unit with regen

[piotr.kacperski]

Hi,

last saturday I had discussion on how following combat should be resolved:
Blood Knights including kastellan with balefire spike (flaming attacks) vs. Ogres with Trollguts on them (regen)
Now as Kastellan has same initiative value as rest of blood knights it was somewhat unclear whether if Kastellan would cause at least one wound, could wounds caused by other blood knights be regenerated or not.

My friend insisted that if he had higher I value then regen would be denied, but as I value was the same regen should work. Not to cause further argument I agreed.

Still I would like to hear some opinion.

P.S. I you respond, please, don't say just yes or no. Please back it up somehow

 

[Pyre]

He would still get the regen saves. On pg. 50 it specifically says all models with the same initiative strike simultaneously, so all the Blood Knights hit a the same instant. Since Regeneration specifically says for the "remainder of the phase" (pg. 74), that means until after that initiative the ogres still regenerate.

I guess you could argue by rolling the attacks one at a time one takes place before the others... but that would REALLY be stretching it to me. Fast dice rolling is an option but the rules are pretty specific about the timing of attacks.

 

[piotr.kacperski]

You say rolling dice one after another is stretching.
If model has multiple attacks it is hard to say that all his attacks happen simultaneously, isn't it stretching?

I proposed that all blood knights will attack in rounds, if Kastellan would cause wound in one round, all attacks in remaining rounds would benefit from Ogre unit being wounded by flaming attack.

Example, 5 blood knights
round 1 - 5 attacks
round 2 - 5 attacks
round 3 - 5 attacks
round 4 - single kastellan attack

now if castellan would cause wound in round 2, than in round 3 all wounds could not be regenerated...

That option sounds fair to me, however my friend insisted on all attacks happen simultaneously...

 

[Dan_Lee]

I believe that in one of the little side notes in the rule book it states that if things are happening simultaneously, but it matters exactly what order they happen in (such as here) then the player who's turn it is gets to pick the order.

So by that logic, in your turns you would say the Kastellan goes first and negates the regen, but in your opponent's turn he would say the order was the opposite.

I'm afraid I don't have my rulebook with me so I can't give a page ref.

 

[midean]

Sequencing has no bearing on the OP's question. All the attacks hit at the same time. Only the Kastellians attacks would prevent a regen sv. All the other attacks will not negate the save. The horses attacks would be able to ignore the regen save though as they strike later.

 

[Dklyn]

BRB gives us two facts:
1)The kastellan doesn't strike before the others. You cannot claim its wound occurs before the others. how you roll the dice will not change that, the same init means it happens the same time, therefore you cannot say the kast attacks before the rest of the unit. Once the init has started, there is no order to the attacks, they are all done at the same time (regardless of how you roll them (p.50))
Claiming you get an advantage from rolling the kast first is like claiming the models you slayed that have the same init don't get to strike back because you rolled first (which is explicitly against the rules ).
2) In order to lose regen, a unit needs to be wounded by a flaming attack previously in the same phase. (p. 74)

Taking these two together, there is no way you can have one model ruin regen before those of the same init attack as though they attacked second. Look at it this way: whether you roll for the kast or the knights first should not matter since they are in the same init.

"I guess you could argue by rolling the attacks one at a time one takes place before the others... but that would REALLY be stretching it to me."
It's not just stretching, it's not the way it works . As you quoted on p.50, same init = same time. I'm not sure why anyone would think how you roll the dice makes any difference in that regard...

"You say rolling dice one after another is stretching.
If model has multiple attacks it is hard to say that all his attacks happen simultaneously, isn't it stretching?"
Of course, you realize before you roll any dice for a model with multiple attacks that you have to declare the target of all your attacks? (p. 48 if you didn't know ), so rolling one at a time gives no strategic advantage. This illustrates the principle that same init is same time no matter how it's rolled. It's just easier if you only have multiple targets and one color of dice (like I do for example )

What midean said is right.

 

[midean]

What midean said is right.

But you stated it oh so more eloquently good Sir...........

 

[Pyre]

"I guess you could argue by rolling the attacks one at a time one takes place before the others... but that would REALLY be stretching it to me."
It's not just stretching, it's not the way it works grin. As you quoted on p.50, same init = same time. I'm not sure why anyone would think how you roll the dice makes any difference in that regard...

Dklyn, I included that just because I've actually had this argument before... more than once in fact... and nothing more. I completely agree that the wording is pretty clear in the book: attacks on the same initiative take place at the same time, and regeneration is not lost until AFTER the flaming attacks.

I don't want to start getting a bad reputation around here yet.

Pyre

 

[JoshoW]

So, by the same token, if a dragon breathes on a unit, the unit may keep its regen for the remaining attacks? (not counting thunderstomps, if they get them)

 

[Count Lasombra]

If a unit is wounded by fire breath it loses it's regenny save for the remainder of the CC phase.He does get to regenerate the dragons other attacks which happen on the same initiative since it cannot be said that the dragon actually breathed first...the breath is just "in the mix" so to speak.

 

[Lord Fear]

Yes indeed, seems everyone's on the same page here. I did have a game the other week where someone absolutely insisted that his Hydra's flaming breath attack could be done before the Hydra's regular attacks based on the sequencing rule, but he's a bit of a chancer when it comes to many other rules. He even managed to get a tournament organiser to let his chariot have S9 impact hits from Mindrazor!

 

[JoshoW]

S9 impact hits *does* technically make sense if it's the Ld value of the chariot itself.... But if it's just the Ld of the crew applied to the chariot that doesn't make much sense given the latest errata. It'd be like giving skeletal steeds s6 based on the fact their riders are Ld6. Incedentaly, that spell seriously doesn't work for vampires ):

He really should have been saving that spell for his corsairs lol

 

[Lord Fear]

Well, you can probably assume that his argument didn't make sense if I'm pointing out it was flawed The Chariot has a LD value of "-" (which can mean 0), so I would have just assumed that the spell doesn't affect the impact hits at all (A harsher reading might've been that the impacts are strength zero!), and that's how we played it during our game, before he asked the TO. Ironically this just meant he got to use his magic dice on something else, and the chariot, which had charged my Arachnarok, did 4 wounds with his normal S5 hits and beat-broke-killed my big spider outright without even needing Mindrazor!

 

[Johnny B]

Incedentaly, that spell seriously doesn't work for vampires ):

Yeah, the Varghulf actually gets worse if you cast Mind Razor on him...
But still, its very nice on Ghouls, even if its not as good as it was before the FAQ.

Yes indeed, seems everyone's on the same page here. I did have a game the other week where someone absolutely insisted that his Hydra's flaming breath attack could be done before the Hydra's regular attacks based on the sequencing rule

You would think that anyone who got that much awesome for 175pts would have the decency to play by the rules :lol:

 

[clever handle]

doesn't a breath weapon attack in CC happen in the shooting phase?

 

[Bishop]

doesn't a breath weapon attack in CC happen in the shooting phase?

If done outside of combat, yes its a shooting attack.

If done in combat then it occurs during the monsters initiative during the CC phase.

(ref: pg 67, BRB)