Lahmian Army List

[Bishop]

I noticed something else that could be cleaned up a bit...

By your retrictions, a Bret swain could have a unit of 15 Knights (otR or Er), seems bit much to me. Or a Chaos swain with 20 Mtd Marauders is pretty yuck too. You took into account Ogres, by stating max 5.

The easy way to word this restriction would be that the Swain's unit has a max US of 20.

 

[Onikaigo]

That does sound better, Bishop. I didn't even think about taking a Brettonian Swain. That'd be dangerous.

US 20 would mean 6 Ogres, not including Hero, or 10 knights, no including hero. That's still a whole lot of knights, but it's better than 15 KotR at least.

 

[Bishop]

I guess I thought about, cuz I could do that without buying anything new And even a 9-lance of KotR could be yuck enough in a VC army list... it's be even faster and harder hitting then anything in a VC list (aside from KotBK)

 

[Onikaigo]

I was doing some thinking about the Lahmian Powers, don't know if this is the right thread or not, but upon playtesting I found the points to be really, -really- cramped.

With all of the points costs in the 25-35 range, it makes it really exclusive that your Lahmian Heros can only have one bloodline power before dipping into the 'Pool' per se. This detracts from the customization aspect of the list in my mind.

Perhaps if we made a few points drops in some of the lower end powers?

'Vanity of the Dead' seems a prime candidate, and really fluffy for many lower tier Vampires to have. If we dropped that to 20 points, it'd allow the route to make a Fighty Vampire with VotD and Overflowing Coffers. Or it'd allow a Vampire to have a dual purpose 'Seduction' and VotD to make her viable in some sort of Combat, and taking the Crimson Gem would actually be an interesting combination.

Magic phase before combat take a prick or two from the gem, get more attacks, use blood drinker to get health back, etc.


Bottom line is I'd like to have SOME option to take two Vampiric powers from the Lahmian bloodline on one hero level Vampire. Have three, maybe four intermixing options that can add up or less than 50, and I'll be golden. Quicksilver is nice, but I feel....limited.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Yeah I would agree with the max US of 20. That would place a healthy limit on, as the player would still have to pay out for the unit.

Ok I have made some changes to the list, let me know what you think. In regards to the bloodline points, I can't change them at the mo as they are still being playtested. However if you want to try them out by altering the points slightly and the feedback that would be great.

 

[Fallen Angel]

Why should IoN be harder to cast when you purchase upgrades? Makes no sense since that would result in grave guards being easier to resurect than normal skeletons..

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I don't think is the healing that is the issue, I think there is a worry about the being able to pay for a min unit with upgrades and then vastly increase them over their unit size.......still I can see your point as well.

 

[Fallen Angel]

So how about that if a unit purchases an upgrade (other than spears) they may not be increased beyond therir starting siza? Or maybe just be increased by d3 rather than d6?

 

[Bishop]

That's why I proposed two ideas.

Personally I like the 2nd one better.

How about...
- IoN works as normal up to starting unit size (they have equipment to pick up)
- Number raised using IoN/LotD beyond the starting unit size is always halved.


Yeah, the concern was raising a pile of well equiped skeletons from a smalll unit.

 

[Fallen Angel]

That sounds good! However, does spears count to this "extra equipment rule"?

 

[Onikaigo]

I'd say a No to that, Angel. Spears can be given to VC's as per the normal army book, and with no negative. Only if you gave them spears -and- full plate, then I'd begin to see an issue.

 

[Fallen Angel]

I agree.

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

So, would one of you finalise those rules, just to make sure thay make sense.

 

[Bishop]

I'd say that even Halberds should be fine (ie. as per normal). Afterall... Spear or Halberd is hardly that different in game terms. Though I could see the "not normal equipment" argument...

Personally, I think the restriction could be reserved for "armoured" skeletons...

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Just a note. Perhaps we should look at it in a overall sense. Instead of trying to balance that particular area which is proving difficult, why not counter the bonus by having a weakness elsewhere in the list?

For example as the Lahmian list has access to better equipped warriors which can be raised, perhaps in can then be balanced by it having an overall limited choice of troops?

 

[Bishop]

Cuz raising Skeletons beyong the starting size when they are very well equiped is busted. Skeletons wth Plate, hw/shield... 2+ save... and then raising a pile for free, is no good!

Just add a "harder to raise" special rule, that only applies when casting IoN on Skeletons who purchased any form of an armour upgrade. IoN raises d3 Skeletons instead of the normal d6.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

So is it just the armour then? Your not too bothered about the weapon options.

 

[Bishop]

As long as the weapon options are normal basic ones (Spears, Halberds, and the like)... there shouldn't be an issue. Afterall normal VC can raise beyond starting size Skellies with Spears!

If you start throwing in "better" or more "elite" options (GWs, Flails, etc) then you'd need to reconsider.

As listed, I'd just put the restriction in for Armour upgrades.

Anyone else agree/disagree? and more importantly, why?

 

[Fallen Angel]

The armoured skeleton restrictment sounds fine to me!

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

So why don't we just say that if the Heavy Armour option is chosen, the skellies unit cannot be increased over their starting size by IoN?

 

[Fallen Angel]

Sounds good! Simple enought and effective enough!

 

[Bishop]

I'm okay with that option as well.

 

[Trevy the Great]

Wow, its been a while since I posted in any of these User Projects. Well, here's my two US pennies.

I'm confused why we are taking Heavy Armor on skeletons in the first place. From my interpretation, Lahmian armies are designed to closely resemble Tomb Kings ones, and Nehekharan armies went into battle almost stark naked. For this reason alone, I don't see why skeletons should have the option to take Heavy Armor at all, and I don't understand the Full Plate option on Grave Guard either. The more elite skeleton troops seems like a more Blood Dragon theme to me. If you want to increase the effectiveness of skeletal soldiers in Lahmian lists, which I understand entirely, why not continue with the Nehekharan theme and allow them to take more Tomb Kings options such as skeleton archers at least and possibly chariots.
The Swain rule in the older edition Army Book was fine as it was, representing a Lahmian's mortal lover (I'm having fun imagining Saurus Scar-Veterans and Ogre Bruisers...) or mind-slave, but I think the option to take a swain retinue is stretching it. If a Brettonina Paladin fell for a Lahmian, there's no reason why is whole following of Knights of the Realm would follow him. It also, as has been mentioned earlier, opens the door for some very broken combos. Ogres and Brettonians came to mind first (I'm kind of surprised that people caught that as late as they did), but those were easily rectified. Other armies such as Lizardmen - 20 Skink Skirmishers greatly increases an army's offensive ranged potential, not a good thing in an army that you want to be based more on elite combat infantry and 20 Saurus could fill a very solid, not to mention unfluffy core while 20 Dryads or Glade Guard could do the exact same thing. I think that the Hero Swain rule works, but taking units is pushing it.

Anyway, my thoughts.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Personally I can see the Lahmian's using the heavier armour. They may dream back to the glory days of Nehekhara, but they spend the majority of their time infiltrating the Empire and Brettonnia where heavier amour is widely well known. They have the money and the means to kit their troops out in the best way possible, which is what this represents.

So personally whilst yes it may be a slight twist on fluff, I still think it works and makes for a decent option in the list.

In regards to he swain retinue, I can see your point. In fact looking at the earlier comments, whilst I don't want to get rid of it entirely, I think it needs further limitation. I think it should be limited to US10, which will mean small units from infantry etc (just to note Lizzies cannot be taken as swains), or if they choose infantry, limits them to 5 models. Personally I think this is better (don't forget they are paying for the points etc), but the limited unit size should balance it out.

Finally - glad to see agreement on the Heavy Armour skellies not being increased by IoN.

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

I agree with the Heavy Armour skellies not being increased by IoN.
Also I can see your point about the swain units, however I don't think the US is the right way to go about it, for example 10 Greatswords is a whole lot better than, say, 10 Brettonian Men at arms. I think a points cap on the unit is the way to go. Something small like 100-150 points for the unit.