large targets VS cannonballs

[eltharynd]

ok so i was looking for a way to screen my strigoi on terrorgheist from shooting attacks... and i determined that if it has a unit in front of them any shooting enemy would get -2 penalty to hit....

but then i was carefully reading the rules for cannons (which i cannot quote cause my book is in italian) and something fishy caught my eye... since i may have found the right way to use my 620+pts glass cannon

so bear with me...
(pg 112 "cannons - choose a target" I'm estimating cause my book is italian)

Decleare a point in line of sight and within reach of the warmachine.
the target doesn't have to be an enemy model, it can be a point in the groung if you want to.

and in the very first pages of the book it declares line of sight as the true line of sight...

hence if i got this right...

this would be an accurate result EVEN IF the cannon is up a hill...

meaning that the cannon cannot choose to target the terrorgheist cause the point he should target is concealed...
so he would have to target the hexwraiths in front of him....

do you agree until now???
if you do follow this next part cause this gets really interesting....

hitting a monster base with a cannon is a piece of cake for any skilled cannon handler....

but if what i said before stands up... this means that a 150pts screen of hexwraiths (which will later separate, as soon as the terrorgheist is in charge range, to do some awesome damage as their usual) will screen the terrorgheist from any frontal cannonball... since hexwraith cannot be killed, and cannonballs stop on models they don't kill we obtain this table where green is hit and red is missed

which basically means that with this setup on the front (and maybe same thing on the interested flanks...) an EXPERT cannon player would still have ONLY 33% chance of actually HITTING my terrorgheist.....

this is awesome news cause it usually is exposed for exactly 1 turn before it gets into CC.... so if the opponent has 2 cannons (let's call it average) statistically it won't even hit... it'd need a 3rd one... on the same argument we can say that he would statistically need 7.2 cannons to take my beast down in 1 turn WHICH IS AWESOOOOOME...

comments?? please don't find me any flaws cause i might have finally found the solution to my thirst for strigoi on terrorgheist general

 

[PrinceCharming]

most people put it 10inch on the back side of the base, meaning from a 4 or higher on the artillery dice, they hit the terrorgheist caus he is way to big, or if u move it sideways, but i think only multi wound monster stop bounce

Could be you are right about your hexwraith tactic tho, not to sure

 

[eltharynd]

i used to put it 7.9 inches away from my target in most cases... it was 8 but a cheesy bastard said since the ball stopped at 8 and didn't bounce it meant it planted right in front of my target so since that episode i always specify 7.9 inches away

 

[Smogg]

Well cannonballs are not stopped by cavalry, even if it does not kill the models, so normally he would just place the cannonball in front of your hexwraiths or right on them.

A better tactic in my opinion is to place some houses or obstacles in deployment zones and the middle of the battlefield where you terrorgeist can take cover behind in deployment and your first turn. Buildings are nice since they cannot be destroyed and will block a bouncing cannonball, and if your objective is to fly up and use the scream, its not too critical if it does not have los for charges while behind the building.

 

[eltharynd]

Well cannonballs are not stopped by cavalry, even if it does not kill the models, so normally he would just place the cannonball in front of your hexwraiths or right on them.

omg i JUST discovered this... and it's a shame... why??? i mean... an empire swordman blocks it but a dragon prince doesn't? o.o what's the point?


the building thing is what i used to do but i find terrain not too much reliable.. since we normally roll it at random...

oh well.. so there was the flaw thanks for pointing that out before i went to a tournament still a shame in my opinion anyway

 

[PrinceCharming]

3 crypt horrors cuold block it =D

 

[eltharynd]

an empire swordman blocks it but a dragon prince doesn't?

ok i did misread the book so only MI MC MB and monsters do block cannonballs ok it's clear now

i think i'm mistaking for 6/7th edition where (if i remember right) even infantry used to block cannonballs.... am i right? o.o

 

[Kaptain Von]

Well cannonballs are not stopped by cavalry, even if it does not kill the models, so normally he would just place the cannonball in front of your hexwraiths or right on them.

A better tactic in my opinion is to place some houses or obstacles in deployment zones and the middle of the battlefield where you terrorgeist can take cover behind in deployment and your first turn. Buildings are nice since they cannot be destroyed and will block a bouncing cannonball, and if your objective is to fly up and use the scream, its not too critical if it does not have los for charges while behind the building.

So, your solution is basically 'never play unless you can guarantee a favourable terrain setup'?

I knew an Imperial Guard player who used to do that - always slap a river across the front of his deployment zone, come what may. Webb's Wiver was a bit of a laugh at first, but when we realised that he was doing it in every pick-up game, a few eyebrows began to be raised. I think you have to be careful about expectations; surely people who aren't into that simulationist "but armies will always try to fight on suitable ground" approach or scenario play are quite likely to huff and puff at you gaming the terrain like that?

That said, do we think the Folding Fortress (when it hasn't been comped or house ruled out of the game on sight) might be a viable approach? That and the Crypt Scavengers thing do allow us to legitimately place terrain where we want it, as something for which we've paid points rather than something we've craftily done on the sly. Do we see people having a problem with that?

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

Terrain should allways be placed by a third party.
Thing is cannons rarely kill my terrorgheist as he is too worried by my other threats breathing down his neck

 

[Smogg]

Hmm, that's not really what I meant. If you play following the actual rules for terrain deployment, you take turns placing the terrain pieces. Placing a buildings and obstacles centrally and by deployment zone should be a non-issue. Besides going up against a cannon/stone thrower player, you will like find that he somehow always find terrain tugged away in each corners very "Pretty and balanced".

If you play a friendly game, you can just agree on the terrain together, and if you are up against multiple cannons, I think most friends would let you have a few spots of cover without any trouble. It should be fairly obvious that leaving no cover for the general while up against say 3 cannons would make for a very short game.

For my own part, most of my opponents field cannon heavy armies every time and as result my armies are usually general on foot, solid infantry, ethereal and vargheists making their cannons a waste of points. I have tried a few times with a general on a zombie dragon, but my opponents can nearly shoot around corners with their cannons and I don't enjoy being so limited and predictable in my movement phase.

 

[Smogg]

@ geordieclubba
Yeah the terrorgeist on its own may not be a prime target if there are several other big things on the table, and it's regeneration helps quite a bit as well. However if eltharynd is fielding a ghoul king general on a terrorgeist, he should expect maximum attention from any enemy war machines.

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

Thats why terrain is very valid idea for screening. Even little walls stop cannon balls for a turn

 

[Kaptain Von]

Hmm, that's not really what I meant. If you play following the actual rules for terrain deployment, you take turns placing the terrain pieces. Placing a buildings and obstacles centrally and by deployment zone should be a non-issue. Besides going up against a cannon/stone thrower player, you will like find that he somehow always find terrain tugged away in each corners very "Pretty and balanced".

If you play a friendly game, you can just agree on the terrain together, and if you are up against multiple cannons, I think most friends would let you have a few spots of cover without any trouble. It should be fairly obvious that leaving no cover for the general while up against say 3 cannons would make for a very short game.

This is what I'm getting at; if people are OK with it, it's fine, but I've played in communities that would raise eyebrows, voices and the roof if you always put the terrain down in a way that benefits you. Even playing the rules to the hilt, there's the opportunity to game the terrain (two hills, a building and a river across the middle for the Empire player); some will approve and some will disapprove of that. Geordieclubba's post indicates that some groups cleave to different expectations about terrain, and as such I'm leery of giving advice about terrain placement unless I happen to know how people's regular opponents feel about terrain.

Personally I'm coming around to the idea that army books, point sizes, lists, battlefield, everything but the actual gameplay - should be discussed and negotiated beforehand, and to be honest, the third edition approach of having a gamesmaster grows more appealing by the day. I find the system a little too volatile and imprecise for two people to just pick up and play in the expectation of a seamless experience.

 

[eltharynd]

Terrain should allways be placed by a third party.

I could not agree more... our local tournaments work exactly taht way and i find it awesome..
1st cause it's impartial but still makes sense...
2nd and more important it allows even simple pitch battles to be always different... and i think that makes the game a lot more exciting

 

[eltharynd]

Terrain should allways be placed by a third party.

I could not agree more... our local tournaments work exactly taht way and i find it awesome..
1st cause it's impartial but still makes sense...
2nd and more important it allows even simple pitch battles to be always different... and i think that makes the game a lot more exciting

well today I'm playing my first game with this list against dark elves... I'm pretty confident as they don't have cannons and i can just cover my SGK with hexwraiths to make him it at 5+ which is not bad.. if i know him he will be filled up with fast cavalry (can't remember the name but the ones with xbows) and a couple of hydras indeed....
so yeah... I'm feeling pretty confident that i can stand against his witches I'll try to take some pictures and I'll let you know how this works up for me....

 

[TinTip]

Well cannonballs are not stopped by cavalry, even if it does not kill the models, so normally he would just place the cannonball in front of your hexwraiths or right on them.

unless im missing something the BRB specifically says that cavalry does stop cannonball. second bullet point on page 113

"If the cannonball bounces into a monstrous infantry/beast/cavalry or monster, that model suffers a hit. However, if the monster or monstrous infantry/beast/cavalry model is not slain, the sheer bulk of the creature robs the cannonball of all momentum and the shot travels no further."

Granted the initial shot might go over them, but it could do the same to any unit.
Fielding a unit a 7 Hexwraiths is an awesome shield for my Terrorghiests, i just keep them more then 7" in front of it

 

[Sanguinus]

unless im missing something the BRB specifically says that cavalry does stop cannonball. second bullet point on page 113

Monstrous cavalry, not regular cavalry. It could certainly be worded more clearly, but that they used "/" instead a comma when listing indicates that the "monstrous" applies to each of the "infantry/beast/cavalry".

 

[Gokamok]

There is a viable point in your original line of thought, being that the war machine MUST have line of sight to the model/point it is targeting. This means that the model must in fact be able to see the spot that's "10 inches from the diagonal rear corner of the TG base". It's often worth taking this into consideration, and checking to see if your opponent is actually able to choose the optimal point for his cannon