Bishop said:
Hmm.. so it'd have to be a 15pt bonus to stds. So 40/65/90 then.
Bishop said:
I'd be okay with something around 15-20 pts.
Legion of Nagash Legion of Nagash Review
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Hmm.. so it'd have to be a 15pt bonus to stds. So 40/65/90 then.
I'd be okay with something around 15-20 pts.
Key to the Grey Vault; Yes, 55 points would make more sense.
Book 6 - The Book of Undermining - 60pts
One dice is enough, three is way too good. Should cost about more than 100 points since you can quite literally kill his entire magic phase unless he rolls exceptionally good.
Book 7 - The Book of Power - 75pts
Change so that you must choose before casting. Otherwise this is a fail-safe and a reuseable power stone in one.
Sacrificial Stone - 50pts
In an army who already can heal itself this items is abit much wouldnt you say? Ontop of this, it can be used as many times as the wearer wants.
Black Jar 30 points
Quite cheap for a S5 breath weapon. Perhaps change it to S4 and armour piercing.
Gem of the Supreme - 50pts
Fine if once per magic phase.
Touch of Ages - 50pts
Something that will solve its problems I think are;
1. Change it so that it only disallows armour saves. Denying both these saves leaves too many units cold in the water.
2. Bearer's strength +2. +3 creates too great of a gap. Sure you wont kill the biggest beasts with an almost certainity but at the same time you can gear up to crush lesser units easily and just use this item when you come across a big baddie.
3. One use, Power level 4. Makes it abit of a gamble.
Again, and I recall saying this at the development of this item as well. It is an item I dislike due to its ZOMG I PWNED YOU-ability. It isnt really a one use item but rather a 'one use on enemy unit before running out'-item. I just see it as rather anticlimatic to see a big model just being swallowed up. Like with some of the new book is a re-occuring theme that I dislike, ie, giving an item great power and justify it with one use.
Just my thoughts.
A general word of advice is that the list seem to sport a great deal of items capable doing multiple wounds, ignoring special saves and in cases very harsh against monsters. Though not saying it is, just that at a glance it appears so.
I think this is it but I will have another look when I've got the time!
Cheers!
Book 6 - The Book of Undermining - 60pts
One dice is enough, three is way too good. Should cost about more than 100 points since you can quite literally kill his entire magic phase unless he rolls exceptionally good.
Book 7 - The Book of Power - 75pts
Change so that you must choose before casting. Otherwise this is a fail-safe and a reuseable power stone in one.
Sacrificial Stone - 50pts
In an army who already can heal itself this items is abit much wouldnt you say? Ontop of this, it can be used as many times as the wearer wants.
Black Jar 30 points
Quite cheap for a S5 breath weapon. Perhaps change it to S4 and armour piercing.
Gem of the Supreme - 50pts
Fine if once per magic phase.
Touch of Ages - 50pts
Something that will solve its problems I think are;
1. Change it so that it only disallows armour saves. Denying both these saves leaves too many units cold in the water.
2. Bearer's strength +2. +3 creates too great of a gap. Sure you wont kill the biggest beasts with an almost certainity but at the same time you can gear up to crush lesser units easily and just use this item when you come across a big baddie.
3. One use, Power level 4. Makes it abit of a gamble.
Again, and I recall saying this at the development of this item as well. It is an item I dislike due to its ZOMG I PWNED YOU-ability. It isnt really a one use item but rather a 'one use on enemy unit before running out'-item. I just see it as rather anticlimatic to see a big model just being swallowed up. Like with some of the new book is a re-occuring theme that I dislike, ie, giving an item great power and justify it with one use.
Just my thoughts.
A general word of advice is that the list seem to sport a great deal of items capable doing multiple wounds, ignoring special saves and in cases very harsh against monsters. Though not saying it is, just that at a glance it appears so.
I think this is it but I will have another look when I've got the time!
Cheers!
Bishop said:
I would be ok with that.
Bishop said:
Ok, so shall we amend to the following:
20pts
One Ritual must be chosen for the Skull at the start of the battle?
Danceman said:
Ok, so we all agree on that
I disagree. Firstly you can only re-roll 3PD, the majority of armies have much more than that. Secondly the re-roll could end up on your opponents favour, increasing the casting roll or granting IF. However to compromise I would agree on that you can re-roll D3 dice per turn?
For the amount you are paying out for this, I think that having the failsafe etc is fair.
As I said before, the Legion has much more limited healing than normal, plus this is at the detriment of the troops the character is in. I certainly don't think it is out of place, though perhaps it needs a limitation on how much it can be used in one turn?
As discussed earlier, I think most of us have agreed on S5 for the DoN if he takes this, or S4 for a Priest if he takes it.
This item causes an automatic wound that cannot be saved by any means when used. It is at the players risk if he wants to use it more than once, and I think that risk balances it.
I again have to disagree really strongly about this. As when the item was discussed, it has been already been nerfed from its first incarnation. Nerfing it even more will make it so no one will use it. It is already 50pts for an item that can be dispelled and can run out without having any effect. On top of that when it does go off, it is not even gauranteed to do anything. A poor roll on the casters side, a good roll on your opponents and a 50pt item has been useless anyway.
I think all these downsides more than balance the potential offshot for a decent roll which yes may do some damage.
Book of undermining;
1. Most armies have more than 3 PD, indeed, but 3pd make up for about 1/3 of most magic phases.
2. I think you underestimate the value of re-roll three dice per turn. You can easily kill the most powerful spell each turn.
3. You will have dispell dice and scrolls for the few spells that come through.
4. If a result ends up in the favour of the opponent that speaks nothing for the item itself but a risky decision that would have been worth it(otherwise the fault is with the player).
D3 dice is a good solution. Potenially powerful, on average still strong and at worst still useful. Good idea. I would also like to boost it to 65pts so you cant put 2 scrolls ontop of it on the same character(I seem to remember scrolls being 20pts).
Sacrifical stone; One use per turn is a good counterbalance. Agreed. Same goes for the Gem of the Supreme but it isnt as important as the Sac Stone. Come to think of it the only take it can be used twice is with a 3+ wound model.
Book 7 - The Book of Power - 75pts; It can mean 2-3PD per turn, boost a poorly rolled cast. Perhaps poke up 85pts. It is a very big boost to the magic phase and power of the bearer and should not leave room for much upgrades(like for example right now you can fit the character with a power stone as well truly making it a magical powerhouse).
Touch of Ages;
On top of that when it does go off, it is not even gauranteed to do anything. A poor roll on the casters side, a good roll on your opponents and a 50pt item has been useless anyway. True, but that is my problem with it. It requires both a bad roll on the casters side and a good roll of the affected side to 'get out safe'(or rather, not die outright). Sure, against greater daemons it wont be as reliable but I see absolutely no reason why should be able to kill off a 500+ point model like this. Though perhaps my concerns are unwarranted and I will back off for now, least untill playtesting has been done!
Cheers, dmn!
1. Most armies have more than 3 PD, indeed, but 3pd make up for about 1/3 of most magic phases.
2. I think you underestimate the value of re-roll three dice per turn. You can easily kill the most powerful spell each turn.
3. You will have dispell dice and scrolls for the few spells that come through.
4. If a result ends up in the favour of the opponent that speaks nothing for the item itself but a risky decision that would have been worth it(otherwise the fault is with the player).
D3 dice is a good solution. Potenially powerful, on average still strong and at worst still useful. Good idea. I would also like to boost it to 65pts so you cant put 2 scrolls ontop of it on the same character(I seem to remember scrolls being 20pts).
Sacrifical stone; One use per turn is a good counterbalance. Agreed. Same goes for the Gem of the Supreme but it isnt as important as the Sac Stone. Come to think of it the only take it can be used twice is with a 3+ wound model.
Book 7 - The Book of Power - 75pts; It can mean 2-3PD per turn, boost a poorly rolled cast. Perhaps poke up 85pts. It is a very big boost to the magic phase and power of the bearer and should not leave room for much upgrades(like for example right now you can fit the character with a power stone as well truly making it a magical powerhouse).
Touch of Ages;
On top of that when it does go off, it is not even gauranteed to do anything. A poor roll on the casters side, a good roll on your opponents and a 50pt item has been useless anyway. True, but that is my problem with it. It requires both a bad roll on the casters side and a good roll of the affected side to 'get out safe'(or rather, not die outright). Sure, against greater daemons it wont be as reliable but I see absolutely no reason why should be able to kill off a 500+ point model like this. Though perhaps my concerns are unwarranted and I will back off for now, least untill playtesting has been done!
Cheers, dmn!
IIRC, the "Books" do not count towards the Magic Item limits... and every caster is required to have one.
I see.
As this is the case I feel there is problem once more with piling up special rules.
A very basic magic phase(DoN + MP) has 8 pd and 3 bound spells. The books chosen I see being the power book or undermining for the lord, probably underminding as you can just load up on power stones to compensate the loss of power and the Helm of Commandent-book on the MP. The problem being, magic levels, bound items, 'free slot' gear and the breath weapon. The list makes up for it slightly with lacking bound items but at the same time the above configuration is rather heavy magic phase.
This could be quickly fixed by the books taking up magic item allowence. Otherwise, if they are to work as gifts they need to be changed quite drastically I feel. Even our current book avoided making too costly gifts(bar the rather overused red fury).
Cheers, dmn.
As this is the case I feel there is problem once more with piling up special rules.
A very basic magic phase(DoN + MP) has 8 pd and 3 bound spells. The books chosen I see being the power book or undermining for the lord, probably underminding as you can just load up on power stones to compensate the loss of power and the Helm of Commandent-book on the MP. The problem being, magic levels, bound items, 'free slot' gear and the breath weapon. The list makes up for it slightly with lacking bound items but at the same time the above configuration is rather heavy magic phase.
This could be quickly fixed by the books taking up magic item allowence. Otherwise, if they are to work as gifts they need to be changed quite drastically I feel. Even our current book avoided making too costly gifts(bar the rather overused red fury).
Cheers, dmn.
That basic magic phase you mentioned applies to pretty much every army? Take a level 4 wizard & a level 2 from the Empire and you get 8PD? It certainly is in no way more OP that any other army that has access to wizards.
I would also point out that yes they do have some extra things, but firstly they will pay for them. A DoN with the Book of Undermining plus other items is very expensive, and unlike VC he is not built for combat in anyway.
I certainly don't see this as something that should be changed now. I think it is going to have to be playtested, and firstly the Legion is meant to be potent magically (and currently I don't seem them matching an all out VC casting army etc), and I really don't think it is going to be as OP as you think it is Dancey.
I have made some additions to the first post if you can all check them out? I may have missed some we agreed on, so let me know if I have.
I would also point out that yes they do have some extra things, but firstly they will pay for them. A DoN with the Book of Undermining plus other items is very expensive, and unlike VC he is not built for combat in anyway.
I certainly don't see this as something that should be changed now. I think it is going to have to be playtested, and firstly the Legion is meant to be potent magically (and currently I don't seem them matching an all out VC casting army etc), and I really don't think it is going to be as OP as you think it is Dancey.
I have made some additions to the first post if you can all check them out? I may have missed some we agreed on, so let me know if I have.
It isnt just the power dice, it is the 3 extra 100% guaranteed casts of what is essentially a better version of Incantation of Urgency. I dont know if it is intended this way but as the wording stands at the moment you can actually charge around terrain and units. I suggest we change the wording there to either you can make a march move or declare a charge as per normal rules. Otherwise it is too strong of a spell to follow a magic phase which will be potent to say the least.
It is just 8PD but close to 11 "PD". Also 355 points for a Level 4 with 2 bound spells and can re-roll d3 power dice for your opponent isnt that costly, or in the cast of using the Book of Power you can cast 3 spells with 3 dice. This would mean you can cast 3 spells + 2 bound spells on a single character. So this would mean you can 9 "pd" from one character + 2 bound spells. This is just from the DoN. Add in a naked(fnar fnar fnar) MPriest and you got a magic phase of 11pd + 3 bound spells. This is a big magic phase by anyone's standard and rather than the sheer amount of Power Dice present in a VC magic army this also has a high destructive power combined with the flexible nature of Tomb King incantations. Having 3 reliable casts of movement spells is a huge advantage. As a TK player I really cannot stress enough the usefulness of this type of spell and compared to the hammer units in the Nagash army list the Tomb King units are dwarfed in comparisment.
As such I cant see Empire wizard being a fair comparisment. A Slann would be a better subject.
Fair enough on playtesting but even so... At a glance it looks abit heavy.
Cheers, dmn.
EDIT: Rather than making yet a new post I just edit some bits in;
This is a good thing. We definitely shouldnt have the VC magic phase as a 'standard' when measuring its power. People already think the regular VC magic is broken, which is why I am voicing my concern here. We're getting too close to it and at the same time gaining the reliability of the TK magic phase. This is the main issue with both having a Level 4 wizard and the casting power of a Tomb King(which more incantations!). The spells and abilities themselves might not be that powerful but it is the way they can be used together so effortlessly. Too much power rolled into one and running the danger of being grouped up with big three, or rather, The Big Quartet. Note, that I am not saying that is 100% sureshot is at the moment. Gah, rambling now. I've made my point already
Also, 2 more things;
Droning effect might be abit too much rolled into one. It would be enough if it affected shooting and rather than forcing war machines to re-roll the misfire dice make it so they can shoot on a 3+ instead(as 4+ would be too high of a roll considering the number of units potentially affected). Being able to chain-fire armies which rely of war machines is simply way to powerful for ability used by a swarm which have a flying move. I am also concerned about this unit being deployed in a congoline behind the lines and effectly ruining an entire gunline(even worse, those who do not use gunlines will suffer even more due to less shooting etc). Using 4-5 of these you will be able to do alot of damage to some armies(which is adds into the rock-paper-scissor). Armies who use alot of shooting are also armies who depend alot on it to win and they generally struggle against undead armies who do not panic. Too much of this might just add insult to injury.
Whispering Spirits has alot of benfits for a spell cast on 5+. Not quite sure what to change though. I like the spell and it gives me a great image of spirits stealing away the attention of the affected unit and fill them with horror and so on. Very nice. Probably incearse to 7+. Still not particularly hard to cast even with 2 dice but not the 'sure' cast of 5+.
dont hate me
I do agree on one point you raised. The wording should be changed so the player either moves or declares a charge, or that Ritual is too powerful I agree.
I'd just like to let you know I played another game today vs. WoC & suffered a solid loss (not a massacre at least), it's a bit late now but I'll post up some relevant info tomorrow.
I second the point raised(hur hur) on the movement Ritual. In fact I would suggest that we restrict a DoN from casting that Ritual twice, to reduce the possibility of a Vanhels' spam like you can do with VC(for the record I consider VHDM spam and not IoN spam a problem. I don't consider IoN spam itself an issue at all)
Regarding Whispering Spirits, the trouble with changing it to 7+ is that the Lore of Nagash already lacks low casting value spells. If it is changed only 1 spell out of 7 would have a casting value of 6 or less, you wouldn't be able to cast it on 1 dice at all, and I don't think it is powerful enough to compete with Land of the Dead.
Regarding the Touch of the Ages, I was the one that suggested the +3. The purpose of that was to add an element of reliability. Keep in mind that it is a One Use item which you have to get past your opponent's Dispel pool first. Without this element I for one would never take the Touch of the Ages at all. While it is possible to kill a 500+ point model at one go, such models typically have 5 or more wounds and might have a ward save to boot, making such a feat a highly improbable event. To use such an extreme example constitutes the use of a strawman argument, IMO. Lowering the bonus to +2 and/or the Power Level to 4 should be fine but it should go no further than that.
Regarding Whispering Spirits, the trouble with changing it to 7+ is that the Lore of Nagash already lacks low casting value spells. If it is changed only 1 spell out of 7 would have a casting value of 6 or less, you wouldn't be able to cast it on 1 dice at all, and I don't think it is powerful enough to compete with Land of the Dead.
Regarding the Touch of the Ages, I was the one that suggested the +3. The purpose of that was to add an element of reliability. Keep in mind that it is a One Use item which you have to get past your opponent's Dispel pool first. Without this element I for one would never take the Touch of the Ages at all. While it is possible to kill a 500+ point model at one go, such models typically have 5 or more wounds and might have a ward save to boot, making such a feat a highly improbable event. To use such an extreme example constitutes the use of a strawman argument, IMO. Lowering the bonus to +2 and/or the Power Level to 4 should be fine but it should go no further than that.
Good point there, Sweeney. Restricting the movement spell to once cast per turn would solve alot of issues, I think.
Though if you take an MP you can of course cast it with this one as well, or if we want to add in some extra 'TK' flavour perhaps use the rituals in a strict order... Though that may be abit much to keep track of during the game.
To recap, restricting it to one cast per wizard would solve alot. As pointed out the VDM spam has been a problem with VC and being able to spam Incantations of Urgency is not going to improve on that.
Also, I may have been abit to hard on the Touch of Ages, and just changing it down to +2 Strength would make it more reasonable.
For the rest, I will let playtesting speak for itself.
Cheers, dmn.
Though if you take an MP you can of course cast it with this one as well, or if we want to add in some extra 'TK' flavour perhaps use the rituals in a strict order... Though that may be abit much to keep track of during the game.
To recap, restricting it to one cast per wizard would solve alot. As pointed out the VDM spam has been a problem with VC and being able to spam Incantations of Urgency is not going to improve on that.
Also, I may have been abit to hard on the Touch of Ages, and just changing it down to +2 Strength would make it more reasonable.
For the rest, I will let playtesting speak for itself.
Cheers, dmn.
Ok, looking at what has been said I would say:
Touch of Ages - I still don't think it should be reduced from +3, however I would agree it's bound value to be reduced so it gives the opposing player a better chance of dispelling on 1D6
Rituals
Ok, I agree that only a caster to cast one particular Ritual per magic phase. I see no harm in say a DoN & MP both casting the movement one, as it is the same as if two wizards both had the same spell. But stopping it being cast over and over means that players will have to think carefully about whether to heal or move in the case of the MP.
Touch of Ages - I still don't think it should be reduced from +3, however I would agree it's bound value to be reduced so it gives the opposing player a better chance of dispelling on 1D6
Rituals
Ok, I agree that only a caster to cast one particular Ritual per magic phase. I see no harm in say a DoN & MP both casting the movement one, as it is the same as if two wizards both had the same spell. But stopping it being cast over and over means that players will have to think carefully about whether to heal or move in the case of the MP.
Perhaps it should also be amended so that a given target unit can only be effected once. ie. So that you can't march move, march move again, and then charge.
Reducing the power level wont cut it since you already have a good magic phase and it is likely most armies will struggle alot with it(the whole magic levels + bound spells + books bit). As such a lower bound level wont do much at all and it is really the effect I am the most worried about. Even on a model with S4 it will have a very good chance of killing a S5 model in one go.
So while it wont kill a Greater Daemon in one go(if it could I would advocate it being dropped) it will mostly likely kill a vampire lord or Chaos lord with very little effort, so in this regard it most certainly not is a strawman argument. Wards arent as common in the newer books, many only protecting VS mundane attacks or give you some other crippling disadvantage.
I just cant see the fun in telling your opponent to roll a dice and say "Ok, remove him*" and then go on playing.
* Vampire lord, Chaos Lord, Slann, etc etc.
With +2 S, it gets more reasonable as the model have a 'real' chance of still standing afterwards.
So while it wont kill a Greater Daemon in one go(if it could I would advocate it being dropped) it will mostly likely kill a vampire lord or Chaos lord with very little effort, so in this regard it most certainly not is a strawman argument. Wards arent as common in the newer books, many only protecting VS mundane attacks or give you some other crippling disadvantage.
I just cant see the fun in telling your opponent to roll a dice and say "Ok, remove him*" and then go on playing.
* Vampire lord, Chaos Lord, Slann, etc etc.
With +2 S, it gets more reasonable as the model have a 'real' chance of still standing afterwards.
Hi folks,
I really wish Id been here for more of this project, I REALLY love the imagery of the army and I think you've all done a fantastic job on it!
Still reading over/ absorbing the list, but I've got a few suggestions if I may... sorry if anything I say goes against things already decided, Im sure theres been mountains of work put into this project, I just have a few ideas for how some units/ things could work and since I wasn't here for their inception Id like to help out now.
It seems to me theres a lot of failsafes built into a lot of the units/ items... they are inherently good rather than relying on combo's/ synergy to work...
I'll read over some more tonight but my personal thoughts with making your own army is if you want opponents to play against it and enjoy themselves, then design it as a tier 2 army, having a mage comparable to a slann in magic power and powerful combat characters and assassinesque characters, and powerful unit choices and nasty magic items could lead to disgruntled opponents.
Sorry that my imputs a bit imprecise and negative thus far, (I have a mouth full of impacted wisdom teeth who are screaming at me that they want out!) I do really love the concept and a lot of the list seems very well thought out, Id just like to see more reliance on cohesion and synergy and less on one trick pony's and the like...
I really wish Id been here for more of this project, I REALLY love the imagery of the army and I think you've all done a fantastic job on it!
Still reading over/ absorbing the list, but I've got a few suggestions if I may... sorry if anything I say goes against things already decided, Im sure theres been mountains of work put into this project, I just have a few ideas for how some units/ things could work and since I wasn't here for their inception Id like to help out now.
It seems to me theres a lot of failsafes built into a lot of the units/ items... they are inherently good rather than relying on combo's/ synergy to work...
I'll read over some more tonight but my personal thoughts with making your own army is if you want opponents to play against it and enjoy themselves, then design it as a tier 2 army, having a mage comparable to a slann in magic power and powerful combat characters and assassinesque characters, and powerful unit choices and nasty magic items could lead to disgruntled opponents.
Sorry that my imputs a bit imprecise and negative thus far, (I have a mouth full of impacted wisdom teeth who are screaming at me that they want out!) I do really love the concept and a lot of the list seems very well thought out, Id just like to see more reliance on cohesion and synergy and less on one trick pony's and the like...
Needless to say I can only echo the concerns you voice in your post, Dreadgrass. I certainly hope people wont flare up in anger as it is a review after all(and they havent killed me yet, so dont worry).
Cheers, dmn.
Cheers, dmn.
Sorry I've not had much time on my hands, I still don't have the time this morning to write up a battle report I'm afraid, but I'd like to point out one thing that most people just 'reading' may not have noticed. Marching is quite troublesome for this army - and this means you have to be smart about your ample character choices, you can't just grab 4 wizards and hope for the best.
@ Sephiroth (Great name btw, Sephiroth meets VC? now thats some scary stuff!)
I see where your coming from, my biggest concern is that, in order to have a chance at getting people to play against an army thats unofficial, you have to, as I think Danceman has said "Kill your Darlings" If this army ends up as hard as VC, Daemons or even Dark Elves, people aren't going to want to play against it.
After reading over the army I think theres an abundance of special rules and the like that are similar to things already in place but different enough to confuse people. Some of the rules, though well thought out, are cumbersome and I think would leave most opponents scratching their heads and probably not too keen on playing again.
A classic example is the hotly contested Touch of Ages, I think that, instead of adding more rules (bound item, chance to run out etc.) the item should be scaled back, so that its potent but not so sure a thing, and comes more into line with existing rules.
My suggestion would be something like:
Touch of Ages - XXpts ( thinking 35?)
{Insert fluff here as your existing stuff is awesome!}
One use only
At the start of any combat phase the bearer may choose to forgo his normal attacks in exchange for a single "Touch of Death" attack against 1 model in BtB contact with the character (In the event the character is in a challenge, only his opponent may be targeted). Both sides roll a D6 and add their Strength (disregard any bonuses for magic/ mundane weapons) If the bearer beats his opponents score, tthe target is treated as if it had been struck by a single Killing Blow (this may affect models of any size)
So it's 1 use, regardless of sucess or failure, its not another bound spell (we have mountains already) the automatic "failsafe" of the +3 strength is removed ( I could imagine this causing a lot of gripes from your opponent) The pay off is better (Killing Blow as opposed to wounds) but I think it suits the item and as it's more difficult to get off it warrants it.
Against a Thirster/ other s6 target VS a Zenith Lord (s5) you'd need to beat your opponents roll by 2 to effect them.
I'd suggest waying this in at ~ 35 points, as its a 1 shot item and now has more potential for failure. It would also then be able to be combined with the Armour of Deathly Empowerment to give your Zenith Lord S6 or, you could give both to your DoN, though its a lot of investment in combat gear for a mage (and probably your General) to have a 1 shot chance against 1 large enemy...
Sorry for the large post, and im sure I'm treading on a lot of toes as there's been so much effort gone into this list. I know Im just a newcomer but I really love the idea/ feel of this army, and I want to be able to use it in my local group without becoming the guy no one wants to play against.
I see where your coming from, my biggest concern is that, in order to have a chance at getting people to play against an army thats unofficial, you have to, as I think Danceman has said "Kill your Darlings" If this army ends up as hard as VC, Daemons or even Dark Elves, people aren't going to want to play against it.
After reading over the army I think theres an abundance of special rules and the like that are similar to things already in place but different enough to confuse people. Some of the rules, though well thought out, are cumbersome and I think would leave most opponents scratching their heads and probably not too keen on playing again.
A classic example is the hotly contested Touch of Ages, I think that, instead of adding more rules (bound item, chance to run out etc.) the item should be scaled back, so that its potent but not so sure a thing, and comes more into line with existing rules.
My suggestion would be something like:
Touch of Ages - XXpts ( thinking 35?)
{Insert fluff here as your existing stuff is awesome!}
One use only
At the start of any combat phase the bearer may choose to forgo his normal attacks in exchange for a single "Touch of Death" attack against 1 model in BtB contact with the character (In the event the character is in a challenge, only his opponent may be targeted). Both sides roll a D6 and add their Strength (disregard any bonuses for magic/ mundane weapons) If the bearer beats his opponents score, tthe target is treated as if it had been struck by a single Killing Blow (this may affect models of any size)
So it's 1 use, regardless of sucess or failure, its not another bound spell (we have mountains already) the automatic "failsafe" of the +3 strength is removed ( I could imagine this causing a lot of gripes from your opponent) The pay off is better (Killing Blow as opposed to wounds) but I think it suits the item and as it's more difficult to get off it warrants it.
Against a Thirster/ other s6 target VS a Zenith Lord (s5) you'd need to beat your opponents roll by 2 to effect them.
I'd suggest waying this in at ~ 35 points, as its a 1 shot item and now has more potential for failure. It would also then be able to be combined with the Armour of Deathly Empowerment to give your Zenith Lord S6 or, you could give both to your DoN, though its a lot of investment in combat gear for a mage (and probably your General) to have a 1 shot chance against 1 large enemy...
Sorry for the large post, and im sure I'm treading on a lot of toes as there's been so much effort gone into this list. I know Im just a newcomer but I really love the idea/ feel of this army, and I want to be able to use it in my local group without becoming the guy no one wants to play against.
The trouble with changing it to an automatic Killing Blow is that it automatically makes the item useless against anything US3 or greater, making it useless except against characters that aren't immune to KB. I'm fine with lowering the S bonus to +2, but changing it to Killing Blow is another thing
You did raise a valid concern regarding other S bonuses and the Touch of Ages though, we should state that the bearer uses his base S with no modifiers from anything other than the Touch itself.
You did raise a valid concern regarding other S bonuses and the Touch of Ages though, we should state that the bearer uses his base S with no modifiers from anything other than the Touch itself.
True, I did state however,
Maybe any US would be a more accurate statement...
To put the KB in perspective, you essentially have a 50% chance of killing anything with S4 (has to BEAT the opponents roll) Wards notwithstanding... it may not be outstandingly unbeatable, it may be worth less points, but since most autokills are a lot harder to accomplish (and normally don't work on unit over US3) and often have a negative side effect (yes, we're looking at you skaven!) but I just believe, for simplicities sake, and the happiness of your opponent it would work better...
You've also got to consider opponents who aren't as awesomely powerful, if an Empire general (or anything with S4) rolls a 6 with the current setup, you still obliterate him on a 5+, and wound on a 3+, and thats if he rolls a 6! If he gets a 1 or 2 he's dead regardless of your rolls...
Again, I haven't been here since the beginning, I know this list is the product of a lot of forethought and debate, but seeing it, and loving the direction it goes, I'd like to help out, and Im afraid at this stage that means playing "Devils Advocate." Im a firm believer in the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) and I think if we can streamline/ balance the rules the list'll stand a much better chance of seeing the tabletop on a regular basis...
Maybe any US would be a more accurate statement...
To put the KB in perspective, you essentially have a 50% chance of killing anything with S4 (has to BEAT the opponents roll) Wards notwithstanding... it may not be outstandingly unbeatable, it may be worth less points, but since most autokills are a lot harder to accomplish (and normally don't work on unit over US3) and often have a negative side effect (yes, we're looking at you skaven!) but I just believe, for simplicities sake, and the happiness of your opponent it would work better...
You've also got to consider opponents who aren't as awesomely powerful, if an Empire general (or anything with S4) rolls a 6 with the current setup, you still obliterate him on a 5+, and wound on a 3+, and thats if he rolls a 6! If he gets a 1 or 2 he's dead regardless of your rolls...
Again, I haven't been here since the beginning, I know this list is the product of a lot of forethought and debate, but seeing it, and loving the direction it goes, I'd like to help out, and Im afraid at this stage that means playing "Devils Advocate." Im a firm believer in the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple Stupid) and I think if we can streamline/ balance the rules the list'll stand a much better chance of seeing the tabletop on a regular basis...
We seem to have gotten a bit bogged down here, can I suggest we maybe keep this thread as a general discussion on how the army flows/ performs and maybe open seperate topics as specific arguements come up? Also, a couple of generic threads (Magic/ Characters/ etc.) might help?
As an aside, since we're looking like having a new unit that'd help with Marching I was thinking we should maybe define the line between Rituals/ Lore of Nagash a bit more... Maybe have the "Wight" characters use the Rituals to represent the old style of magic (ie Tomb Kingsesque) and that they're more imposing their will over the troops rather than chanting/ casting. Then you could have the Disciple/ Priest focused around the Lore of Nagash and the newer style of magic, with maybe a book option to give them Rituals? A low cost one designed for the Priest (1 cast maybe?) and a higher cost one for the Disciple (2 casts maybe?) This would also allow a lot more distinction within the army as well as some very characterful builds (all living with offensive mages? all dead wight army with a Lord + 3 Princes?)
Im playtesting Strigoi a bit at the sec, but Nagash's legion beckons too... maybe I'll moonlight as a wight and run up a few lists...
As an aside, since we're looking like having a new unit that'd help with Marching I was thinking we should maybe define the line between Rituals/ Lore of Nagash a bit more... Maybe have the "Wight" characters use the Rituals to represent the old style of magic (ie Tomb Kingsesque) and that they're more imposing their will over the troops rather than chanting/ casting. Then you could have the Disciple/ Priest focused around the Lore of Nagash and the newer style of magic, with maybe a book option to give them Rituals? A low cost one designed for the Priest (1 cast maybe?) and a higher cost one for the Disciple (2 casts maybe?) This would also allow a lot more distinction within the army as well as some very characterful builds (all living with offensive mages? all dead wight army with a Lord + 3 Princes?)
Im playtesting Strigoi a bit at the sec, but Nagash's legion beckons too... maybe I'll moonlight as a wight and run up a few lists...
Ok, reading through these posts, I like Deadgrasses alternative providing the points cost is lowered for the Touch of Ages and it does work on a creature of any size.
Dreadgrass - I know some have concerns about the Legions power level, and whilst your opinion is valid, others have disagreeing opinions. I am not willing at the moment to scale back everything and undo the work we have done - that is what the playtesting will show. If of course the results from that show the Legion is OP, then yes further changes will be made.
I dislike the suggestion and making the Rituals and Lore more seperate. I personally like how they work at the moment, and unless they have cause to be OP, I don't want to start undoing the work already put into designing them.
So currently we have quite a few "obvious" changes, that do need altering as they were clearly wrong. For other things, I think playtesting should occur first before anymore changes are made.
Dreadgrass - I know some have concerns about the Legions power level, and whilst your opinion is valid, others have disagreeing opinions. I am not willing at the moment to scale back everything and undo the work we have done - that is what the playtesting will show. If of course the results from that show the Legion is OP, then yes further changes will be made.
I dislike the suggestion and making the Rituals and Lore more seperate. I personally like how they work at the moment, and unless they have cause to be OP, I don't want to start undoing the work already put into designing them.
So currently we have quite a few "obvious" changes, that do need altering as they were clearly wrong. For other things, I think playtesting should occur first before anymore changes are made.