List against a bret army

[M.Deadman21]

Hi ive just started playing Warhammer this year so i am a nob.
I have an experienced friend i play alot, which is handy because he knows the rules very well however it also means i usually lose to him, especially when he play Brets.

Hi likes to play an all Chav army with a lord on a Pegasus kitted out just for killing vampires, he always takes large blocks of two grail knight with a damsel in them.

Im hoping with some help his predictable army style will give me the upper hand, he is very patient and sits back until he gets a chance to get a double charge off. I have written this list with that in mind and im fully open to criticism if its not going to work. See below

Vampire lord
red furry
Walking Dead
Magic Level
Infinate hatred
Night shroud
Sword of might (+ 1 S sorry if I have the wrong one)
talisman of Lycni
Black perpate

Vampire
Avitar of death
Ghoul kin

Vampire
sommon Ghouls
Dark Acolyte
Fire rod thingy

Vampire
raise Gouls
flayed haberk
BSB

15 crypy Ghould + Champ
15 crypy Ghould + Champ
15 crypy Ghould + Champ
5 Dire wolves
5 Dire wolves
5 Black knights no barding with standard bearer (136 pts)
5 Black knights no barding with standard bearer (136 pts)
Vargulf
Vargulf

plan is fairly cowboy, but I plan on using the sling shot method to throw my lord into combat with what he calls his vampire killer in turn one. as a character on a Pegasus cannot join a unit it should be a fight to the death on their own. after that he can either help flank attack or go back and join the main unit for extra punch.

Ill be running the black knights with the vargulfs, i will be hoping to tie up a flank or two by tying up a flank unit with a vargulf and hopefully being in position to flank charge in the following turn.

i hope to use the dire wolves to limit is movement and use raise the dead to prevent him being able to get double charges into any block.

thanks for your help im open to all ideas, my last two games against his brets i got smashed

 

[lordcypress]

Brettonians can be easy to manipulate with Dire Wolves. Lets say your friend has two units of Knights positioned something like this:

G=Grail Knight
D=Dire Wolves


GGGGG----GGGGG
-GGGG-----GGGG
--GGG-------GGG
----G---------G
--D----------D
------D----------D
----------D---------D
-------------D---------D

Run your Dire Wolvs directly infront of his cavalry units and angle them in such a way so that he either has to charge them or reform then try to move around them. If he charges he has to line up to your Dire Wolves. You've now forced his Knights to go into the direction that you want. Just don't forget that Dire Wolves can reform for free during their movement at any time. This ability is huge in directing units to where you want them to go. I've seen players get totally messed up by this tactic. Even seen players not move their units at all. Heard this line a few times now. "I'm not charging your crappy wolves, I'm not exposing my Knights flanks." then I think to myself. "Ok don't move then, that just gives me more time to pelt you with magic and get my units into more favourable positions."

Also against Brettonians I find the Lore of Metal is just awesome. Maybe consider Forbidden Lore for your Lord.

 

[Campbellstein]

the idea of slingshotting your lord into a fight to death with the vampire killer is a risky plan when you consider what will happen, even if you kill the enemy lord, he is alone and vulnerable and if your lord (who IIRC must be your general) dies, its game over.

the dog tactic above works brilliantly, and can completely scupper them. another tactic using dogs would be the doggy death star. been mentioned 8 billion times on here, but as you are new i will repeat it

6 dogs + 1 doom wolf, charges the pegasus mounted lord, the doom wolf challenges. this means both the lord an rider must target the doom wolf. will kill him with overkill (maximum total CR of 6) you will outnumber (CR1) so 5 more dogs will die, leaving him stuck in combat until the end of his next turn when he can dispatch the final dog.

 

[Rangerboy]

I agree with what everyone else has been telling you...I wouldn't want my lord anywhere near combat right off the bat. Your list is pretty much like a Bret list in reality...You want to get the charge off fast as well. With ghoulkin you can postion your dogs and ghouls in such a way that when he hits the dogs you will get the flanks of his knights. You may want to kit your lord with the helm. I like running a sling shot vamp but I use a hero vamp to do it. I usually run sword of battle +1A, nightshroud, talisman of the lycni, infinite hatred, walking death. I put two ghoul units in front and my lords ghoul unit in the rear to protect him and use the helm to give his WS7 to 20 ghouls...once knights get held up they are in alot of trouble!

 

[Bishop]

All you have to do to beat Brets is
a) don't get charged by them (but you probably will)
b) survive through the initial charge... once the initial charge is done, the Brets will have a hard time winning.

I don't understand "large blocks of 2 Grail Knights"?? Grail Knights are a 0-1 choice.

Lord on a Pegasus isn't really that scary in my experience.

Wolves are good for baiting...

Sounds like there's not a lot of magic on his side. Maybe take more magic... getting a Vanhels off definately helps as preventing the Bret charge is key to defeating them.

If you could post his army list I could help you out more...

 

[M.Deadman21]

Thanks guys with all that in mind i think ill go more magic heavy with lore of metal ill wip up a new list this arvo, i did think that the sling shot lord was risky but the game is just a fun one between friends so i do like trying things that are risky and unexpected. ill try it another time, id like to beat him this time :tongue:

I am thinking thou that if im not using the sling shot and i have helm of command that the skeletons would be a better option, both will die just the same against a charge but in the second turn skeletons will have a higher combat res and armour save, with ws7 they should stick around better and hopefully turn the tide of combat res. and the extra poison attacks that the ghouls offer are almost wasted on an 2+ armour save opponent.

Um im not sure on the grail knight’s thing, does that mean that he can only have one of them in his whole army?

Cheers

 

[Bishop]

Grail Knights are a 0-1 UNIT choice. He can have a single unit of between 3-12 (iirc) Grail Knights. The only way to get more then that would be by taking a Special Character that allows more.

 

[M.Deadman21]

Cheers Bishop I will keep that in mind

Below is my rather differnt list thats more magic Oriented. With 9 power di and two bound spells and the lore of metal.
Im tossing up whether to drop the book of Arkhan and a black knight unit for a second vargulf, statistically because of the regen and terror im thinking that one on each far flank could be rather annoying to my opponent.
Im also concerned that my troops are thin any thoughts?,
Im hoping that a surprise cast of VhD will see my grave guard charge a nice big block of knights and a second surprise cast of staff of Archan(with the aid of the helm will see his unit take a heavy loss in one turn.

all thoughs appreciated


Vap Lord
Forbidden lore
dark Acolyte
Magic level
Avatar of death(great Weapon
Night shroud
Helm command
crown dammed

vap
dark acolyte
avatar of death
enchanted shield
Book Archan

vap
Lord of the Dead
Avatar of Death
staff of Damnation

15 grave guard with banner of barrows
10 skeletons with Standard bearer
10 skeletons with Standard bearer
10 crypt ghouls
5 dire wolves
5 dire wolves
5 blackknights with standard bearer
5 blackknights with standard bearer
Vargulf

 

[Bishop]

I'd keep the Book of Arkhan. It's arguably one of the best bound items in the game!

Yes, your troops do seem a bit thin... but that's a difficulty in most VC lists.

TBH, the Lord should lose all the CC type equipment and focus on being a caster-type. Leave the fighting to the Vamps that you could afford to lose. Though, I usually still keep the stupid hat... cuz you never know when that cannonball/spell/whatever will get pass your look out sir roll.

 

[M.Deadman21]

Hi guys

Thank you all for your help. In a last minute change I changed one of the Vampires to be a scout with wristbands of black gold and talisman of lycni. I was worried that I had focused too much on what he normally brought rather than being balanced and able to take on anything. I figured at the very least I would be able to march block and if he did take some shooting I could use him to take that out.
Worked a charm, below is his list

Lord
Grail Vow
B. Warhorse
V. Of the Joust
Heartwood Lance
Armour of Agilulf

B.S.B
Grail Vow
B. Warhorse
V. of Duty
War Banner

Damsel
Warhorse
Dispell Scroll

Damsel
Warhorse
Dispell Scroll

6 Errant

6 Errant
5 Realm
Full Command
10 Bowmen
Braziers
5 Questing
Full Command
3 Pegasus
Full Command
Total
5 Yeomen
Shields
Musician
5 Yeomen
Shields
Musician
7 Grail
Full Command


We randomised the scenery with a hill on both sides however it ended up that a combo of woods and buildings protected on corner and only allow for two bottle necks which prevented and chance of a double charge, combined with my dire wolves playing cat and mouse with his pistolers and march blocking knights.
I have to say that my back knights were really handy they were able to stay out of charge range and hide behind scenery and jump right out and into the rear as they passed. Latter my black knights showed that their killing blow is very very helpful! After the charge my black knights are only strength 4 so brets only get a 6+ward when you roll a killing blow, that said good knight to his standard bearer.

The scout was hiding behind a building in the deployment phase and ran around to behind them to march block in turn one, this was great not only did I slow the advance of one of hi knightly units one of them manoeuvred to try prevent me taking out his trebuchet, he also sent a barrage of arrows at the scout with no effect and I didn’t need to mention the ward save. My Vampire charged a group of yeomen killed a few and they ran, I over ran into a trebuchet crew, one bad roll and my vampire lost died to combat res against a weapon skill 2 trebuchet crew! That bad roll really did show me why it was not a good idea to be so cowboy with my lord, so thank you again for the advice

My vargulf run up one flank and ripped up his archer and one of his units ok knights that were within 6 inches ran away form terror!

To be honest it was very lucky magic that one the day for me, in turn one my lord failed his stupidity test and so nothing much happened in my magic phase turn two however I rolled an irresistible force on spirit of the forge and then rolled a 12 for how many strength 6 hits! This wiped a whole unit, turn three I rolled another irresistible force on spirit of the forge and wiped out all but three of his grail knights by turn five he only had two units of knights left and all the march blocking and scenery prevented him form charging at all. And he conceded victory as I had only lost 3 black knights to a stone throw (his other throws missed and then he wouldn’t risk it when our units were all close).

So thanks again everyone

 

[Heinrich of Mousillon]

I play a Bretonnian Army so hopefully I can give some useful advice. First off, with a VC army he will almost always get the charge on you, especially with his Immune to Psychology Grail Knights, so I would advise a defensive approach. Unless he is taking Peasant Bowmen and a Trebuchet you should be fine not moving or moving very little.

While you hold your units back bulk them up with Invocation of Nehek, and perhaps even spawning Zombie Horde distractions that will cause his knighta to overrun into a bad position or swamp them in a position that will leave a flank open.

If he is taking Men-at-Arms blocks you shouldn't have to worry about them too much as strong, large blocks of Ghouls will easily cause them to flee as long as they are away from his Knights (remember that Peasants can us the Ld of any Knight in 6") and from the BSB and General.

It may also be good to have some Skeleton units with spears ready for recieving a charge (since they can fight in two ranks they have a chance of striking back first round).

Vanhel's Danse Macabre will be a vital spell to use on units about to receive a charge, perhaps even take a Corpse Cart with Unholy Lodestone to help bulk your forces as well as to cast Miasma of Deathly Vigour.

I would advise exchanging your Knights and Varghulfs for a strong block or two of Grave Guard with sword and shield. They will take a charge better and have Killing Blow which will be quite effective if you give them Always Strike First from the Cart or the Danse.

Overall it will be beneficial in my opinion to go defensive against most Bretonnian lists (your list is very offensive). Though you may be able to trap the Grail Knights with your dogs allowing your knights or varghulf to trap the Knights with a Flank charge.

I hope this helped you, I don't know his precise list so I can only give you so much advice. Good luck to you and your army.

Happy Gaming!