Lizardmen and WoC
- Thread starter Valdiroth
- Start date
-
The masquerade of murder returns! A new game of Vampires Amongst Us has begun. Unmask the killers, trust no one, and try to survive the night. Find out more and sign up now!
This is a very, very broad question.
Lizards are an incredibly well rounded army. They can bring the heaviest Magic in the game, they can bring some very annoying shooting (Skinks/Salamanders), they're basic core infantry is rock hard (Saurus), and their characters can literally make or break your battleplans if used correctly. Without knowing a general idea of what someone likes to run, I hesitate to comment on how to best build a list tailored against lizards; they have so many options that it's nearly impossible to say 'This really works!'
Bring what -you- have found to work best in the past, according to your playstyle. Go in to the fiht comfortable with what you've got, and learn from it; win or lose it'll be a good game.
WoC: This is slightly easier to talk about. WoC are close combat monsters that can be set up as a rock to weather anything the enemy can bring (Nurgle/Tzeentch) or super killy and fast (Slaanesh/Khorne). The thing you have to remember about WoC: They love combat, but bring very little Static CR to the table. Their army will be very small and compact (Unless they go the Marauder route), so the way I take down warriors is through attrition. Every wound you get through successfuly is huge; you can regain yours, he can't. Keep your flanks safe, his his flanks, and grind him down. His faster units (See: Chaos Knights, Shaggoths) are dangerous, but treat them like you would an opponents hard hitting unit. Distract them, let them kill Zombies, and destroy them when the opportunity arises.
I'm sorry I can't be specific, but without knowing what your opponent might bring it's difficult to say.
Lizards are an incredibly well rounded army. They can bring the heaviest Magic in the game, they can bring some very annoying shooting (Skinks/Salamanders), they're basic core infantry is rock hard (Saurus), and their characters can literally make or break your battleplans if used correctly. Without knowing a general idea of what someone likes to run, I hesitate to comment on how to best build a list tailored against lizards; they have so many options that it's nearly impossible to say 'This really works!'
Bring what -you- have found to work best in the past, according to your playstyle. Go in to the fiht comfortable with what you've got, and learn from it; win or lose it'll be a good game.
WoC: This is slightly easier to talk about. WoC are close combat monsters that can be set up as a rock to weather anything the enemy can bring (Nurgle/Tzeentch) or super killy and fast (Slaanesh/Khorne). The thing you have to remember about WoC: They love combat, but bring very little Static CR to the table. Their army will be very small and compact (Unless they go the Marauder route), so the way I take down warriors is through attrition. Every wound you get through successfuly is huge; you can regain yours, he can't. Keep your flanks safe, his his flanks, and grind him down. His faster units (See: Chaos Knights, Shaggoths) are dangerous, but treat them like you would an opponents hard hitting unit. Distract them, let them kill Zombies, and destroy them when the opportunity arises.
I'm sorry I can't be specific, but without knowing what your opponent might bring it's difficult to say.
Well all I can tell you from past experiences is the lizardmen player always loves to bring his Slann along with blocks of Saurus, skink skirmishes and salamanders.
There's almost nothing I can do to stop him from casting, Slanns just dominate the magic phase and hes extremely conservative when casting his spells, so that kills the feedback scroll idea.
WoC player has a very small elite army, nurgle / khorne.
Block of warriors, chosen, knights + Chariot and he always brings Sorcerers (we're all pretty keen on magic in 8th ed).
I'm not looking to be the guy that ruins the day by steamrolling anyone, just after any tips / advice or things that may have worked for you in the past against these rock solid heavy infantry armies.
The only thing that bothers me is the Slann, these guys are just plain nasty.
There's almost nothing I can do to stop him from casting, Slanns just dominate the magic phase and hes extremely conservative when casting his spells, so that kills the feedback scroll idea.
WoC player has a very small elite army, nurgle / khorne.
Block of warriors, chosen, knights + Chariot and he always brings Sorcerers (we're all pretty keen on magic in 8th ed).
I'm not looking to be the guy that ruins the day by steamrolling anyone, just after any tips / advice or things that may have worked for you in the past against these rock solid heavy infantry armies.
The only thing that bothers me is the Slann, these guys are just plain nasty.
Lessons on how to kill a Slann!
...I'm clueless really. I've been playing for 5 years or so, and I've -never- played against a Slann. It's odd, but kinda cool that I've managed to avoid those frogs.
Sorry on that count, I really don't know what to do against a Slann other than engage it in Combat and wear it down, but that's probably much easier said than done.
Against Solid Infantry, though, I can help!
Nurgle Chaos: -1 to hit while shooting doesn't effect VC at all, but the -1 WS actually makes us need 5's to hit. To counteract this, Magic him with Hex's (Enfeebling Foe, etc) to lower his WS to still need 4's, or buff yourself (Helm of Commandment, Lore of Light) to allow your smashy units get as many attacks as possible.
Against Khorne Warriors it really depends on what he's bringing as far as weaponry. Halberds means high strength, lots of attacks, twin weapons is many attacks at decent strength, sword and board means a sturdy block with Frenzy...
Against all, I bring Grave Guard. Great Weapons, combined with any sort of support (Helm, Speed of Light) can help them stand toe to toe with warriors. Killing blow is -amazing- against people with high armor saves, indeed!
So, against Chaos I'd field something like this:
Lord
Red Fury
Ogre Blade
Flayed Hauberk
+whatever
--This makes a high strength lord to cut through armor (Str 7), do it again when he kills someone, he still hits the Warriors on three's and kills on 2's with a -4 Armor Save. Even a 2+ armor save to boot. He even strike at initiative, huzzah! Great for cutting through Warriors or other units alike!
A large-ish block of Grave Guard. I'd say at least 25, all with Great Weapons. More Str 6 against armored warriors will make him cry.
That's the core of the army I'd bring, all of that in one unit (Perhaps with a BsB of Regeneration, or other nasty goodness). It's a bit of a deathstar, indeed, but it will decimate whatever warriors you run into.
This is about 700 points, and that might be all you need to invest in this unit to be honest. I'd get a casty support Vampire with the Helm of Command, and a Wight King bodyguard with the Sword of Kings for your own protection. This will allow you to throw WS 7 where it's needed, and those necessary challenges that come along from Chaos can be intercepted by your Wight King who will gladly nip their heads.
So, in conclusion to this essay I seemt o have written....
Combat Lord with High Strength is a necessity against Chaos (In my playstyle), along with a bodyguard that can deal as much damage, or more, than he does. After that, keep your flanks safe, and get him in combat ASAP, -with- the right support. Vampires run off of Synergy, and attrition. Get those two concepts in your list, and employ them and you're be golden.
...I'm clueless really. I've been playing for 5 years or so, and I've -never- played against a Slann. It's odd, but kinda cool that I've managed to avoid those frogs.
Sorry on that count, I really don't know what to do against a Slann other than engage it in Combat and wear it down, but that's probably much easier said than done.
Against Solid Infantry, though, I can help!
Nurgle Chaos: -1 to hit while shooting doesn't effect VC at all, but the -1 WS actually makes us need 5's to hit. To counteract this, Magic him with Hex's (Enfeebling Foe, etc) to lower his WS to still need 4's, or buff yourself (Helm of Commandment, Lore of Light) to allow your smashy units get as many attacks as possible.
Against Khorne Warriors it really depends on what he's bringing as far as weaponry. Halberds means high strength, lots of attacks, twin weapons is many attacks at decent strength, sword and board means a sturdy block with Frenzy...
Against all, I bring Grave Guard. Great Weapons, combined with any sort of support (Helm, Speed of Light) can help them stand toe to toe with warriors. Killing blow is -amazing- against people with high armor saves, indeed!
So, against Chaos I'd field something like this:
Lord
Red Fury
Ogre Blade
Flayed Hauberk
+whatever
--This makes a high strength lord to cut through armor (Str 7), do it again when he kills someone, he still hits the Warriors on three's and kills on 2's with a -4 Armor Save. Even a 2+ armor save to boot. He even strike at initiative, huzzah! Great for cutting through Warriors or other units alike!
A large-ish block of Grave Guard. I'd say at least 25, all with Great Weapons. More Str 6 against armored warriors will make him cry.
That's the core of the army I'd bring, all of that in one unit (Perhaps with a BsB of Regeneration, or other nasty goodness). It's a bit of a deathstar, indeed, but it will decimate whatever warriors you run into.
This is about 700 points, and that might be all you need to invest in this unit to be honest. I'd get a casty support Vampire with the Helm of Command, and a Wight King bodyguard with the Sword of Kings for your own protection. This will allow you to throw WS 7 where it's needed, and those necessary challenges that come along from Chaos can be intercepted by your Wight King who will gladly nip their heads.
So, in conclusion to this essay I seemt o have written....
Combat Lord with High Strength is a necessity against Chaos (In my playstyle), along with a bodyguard that can deal as much damage, or more, than he does. After that, keep your flanks safe, and get him in combat ASAP, -with- the right support. Vampires run off of Synergy, and attrition. Get those two concepts in your list, and employ them and you're be golden.
Thanks a tonne for that, I'll be sure to let you all know how it goes.
Has anyone had much success with the blood drinker combined with infinite hatred + red fury + strength potion?
Thinking of trying it out, I've had 15 GG die in close combat to that Slann when he used lore of light, something like 2d6 str 4 hits (5str against undead) combined with his temple guard, seems to tear my guys apart D=
It's also possible for his entire army to be ld 10 with cold blood, it's insanely hard to crack.
I could use lore of death and purple sun his unit to death, but we both play pretty friendly games and I don't want to beat his slann that way.
So it just leaves the GG deathstar option, I'll see how it goes.
I'm a little worried if he uses lore of life though, and there's almost nothing you can do to stop a Slann casting.
Has anyone had much success with the blood drinker combined with infinite hatred + red fury + strength potion?
Thinking of trying it out, I've had 15 GG die in close combat to that Slann when he used lore of light, something like 2d6 str 4 hits (5str against undead) combined with his temple guard, seems to tear my guys apart D=
It's also possible for his entire army to be ld 10 with cold blood, it's insanely hard to crack.
I could use lore of death and purple sun his unit to death, but we both play pretty friendly games and I don't want to beat his slann that way.
So it just leaves the GG deathstar option, I'll see how it goes.
I'm a little worried if he uses lore of life though, and there's almost nothing you can do to stop a Slann casting.
Souls Of The Dammned
Zombie
With the lizardmen, take a magic vampire with lore of shadow. The spell "purple sun of xerxes" is a lizardmen killer (it might be lore of death). The purple sun makes anything hit by the blast template take an inititive test or die, and at Inititive 2, saurus will be dying. Also, use a suicide vampire to cast it, aka not your general, because you will need lots of dice to cast it, and you dont want your general exploding, as funny as it may be.
Questioner
Wight King
Im am going to start a Lizardmen army (gotta love the dinos!), and I know that you should not count on magic to win against them. Against WoC, Lore of metal, every time!
Well there are a few ways to kill a slann and to minimize the damage from his spells.
ALWAYS bring a black coack to the table when facing a slann. Even if you just steal 1 power dice that's very good against him, the coach has been my primary defence against him since 8th edition, you will not regret buying it, even more, when the coach is able to fly and if the slann is wandering alone you will be able to charge the slann from quite a distance, and remember, slann is now an infantry model so you can deliver some nasty klling blows with the coach.
A corpse cart with balefire is a great adittion to your magic defense, if you have your vamp lord lvl 3 it means you won't be on a disadvantage on your dispelling atempts because he is a level 4 wizard and sometimes that -1 is the diference between casting a spell and failing... and remember what happens when a wizard fails a single spell!
Defending yourself from direct damage spells is actually very easy, just purchase some magic resistance items, or the banner of the blood keep, or scroll of preservation or every one of them, for example if you use the scroll of 4+ ward save vs a spell to a unit with MR 2, that will be a 2+ ward save against magic, the same happens to a unit with the banner of the blood keep and a vamp with MR 2. What you must save your dispell dices for, is to dispell those nasty augmentation spells from lore of light (I always bring a dispell scroll for this).
Killing a slann a really difficult task, and the only way I've done that is charging his unit and winning by a lot so he will run and therefore the slann will die (being the battle stardard bearer) and sometimes you just have to kill every single model in his unit if the slann is in a temple ward unit because of their stubborn rule, this may sound hard, but a properly kitted grave guard unit will do it.
ALWAYS bring a black coack to the table when facing a slann. Even if you just steal 1 power dice that's very good against him, the coach has been my primary defence against him since 8th edition, you will not regret buying it, even more, when the coach is able to fly and if the slann is wandering alone you will be able to charge the slann from quite a distance, and remember, slann is now an infantry model so you can deliver some nasty klling blows with the coach.
A corpse cart with balefire is a great adittion to your magic defense, if you have your vamp lord lvl 3 it means you won't be on a disadvantage on your dispelling atempts because he is a level 4 wizard and sometimes that -1 is the diference between casting a spell and failing... and remember what happens when a wizard fails a single spell!
Defending yourself from direct damage spells is actually very easy, just purchase some magic resistance items, or the banner of the blood keep, or scroll of preservation or every one of them, for example if you use the scroll of 4+ ward save vs a spell to a unit with MR 2, that will be a 2+ ward save against magic, the same happens to a unit with the banner of the blood keep and a vamp with MR 2. What you must save your dispell dices for, is to dispell those nasty augmentation spells from lore of light (I always bring a dispell scroll for this).
Killing a slann a really difficult task, and the only way I've done that is charging his unit and winning by a lot so he will run and therefore the slann will die (being the battle stardard bearer) and sometimes you just have to kill every single model in his unit if the slann is in a temple ward unit because of their stubborn rule, this may sound hard, but a properly kitted grave guard unit will do it.
Great responses, I really never thought about ever using a black coach, but I think that it will be making some appearances in my lists from now on.. once I get one 
Light and life are the two biggest boons to a lizardmen army for sure, the light making up for their few disadvantages in combat making them combat machines, these guys will easily tear through just about anything if supported.
Really didn't expect just how hard it would be to shut a slann down and they make it so very hard to have a reliable magic phase. Honestly it would be very easy for me to just use a suicidal lore of death thrall to nuke his temple guard without me feeling too bad about it cause that toad really makes it hard for me to have any fun at all with my magic phase.
I have had a great deal of good experiences with a fully kitted out GG unit, banner of barrows, h2h monster vampire lord and a wight king with the hof banner.
VDM this unit and they WILL chew through temple guard like there's no tomorrow, tested out the blood drinker + potion of strength in dire situations where I needed to beef the unit up, cause really unless you go magic heavy, it's very hard to get many spells off in the magic phase. These guys do cost a tonne of points though, so you're going to want to make sure they're well looked after.
Skeletons are just garbage, I don't think I'll ever be using them again, even as an anvil unit, they don't last longer than 2 turns of combat against saurus, and they're only a few points extra than the damn lizards, I really feel we're overpaying for skeletons, however I am sure they have their uses......
Ghouls on the other hand with a bit of luck can put up a decent fight and will whether most shooting lizards can throw at you with their good toughness. I managed to drag down 6 saurus in a turn of combat without VDM with less than 20 ghouls, skeletons managed to cause a massive 0 wounds the entire game =\
Keen on trying out some blood knights + cairn wraiths if I get sick of using GG, or we expand to more points.
Just some thoughts!
Feel free to expand on this, what works / doesn't work for you particularly on how to make the magic phase work for you against these slimy toads!
Thanks for reading! :zombie:
Light and life are the two biggest boons to a lizardmen army for sure, the light making up for their few disadvantages in combat making them combat machines, these guys will easily tear through just about anything if supported.
Really didn't expect just how hard it would be to shut a slann down and they make it so very hard to have a reliable magic phase. Honestly it would be very easy for me to just use a suicidal lore of death thrall to nuke his temple guard without me feeling too bad about it cause that toad really makes it hard for me to have any fun at all with my magic phase.
I have had a great deal of good experiences with a fully kitted out GG unit, banner of barrows, h2h monster vampire lord and a wight king with the hof banner.
VDM this unit and they WILL chew through temple guard like there's no tomorrow, tested out the blood drinker + potion of strength in dire situations where I needed to beef the unit up, cause really unless you go magic heavy, it's very hard to get many spells off in the magic phase. These guys do cost a tonne of points though, so you're going to want to make sure they're well looked after.
Skeletons are just garbage, I don't think I'll ever be using them again, even as an anvil unit, they don't last longer than 2 turns of combat against saurus, and they're only a few points extra than the damn lizards, I really feel we're overpaying for skeletons, however I am sure they have their uses......
Ghouls on the other hand with a bit of luck can put up a decent fight and will whether most shooting lizards can throw at you with their good toughness. I managed to drag down 6 saurus in a turn of combat without VDM with less than 20 ghouls, skeletons managed to cause a massive 0 wounds the entire game =\
Keen on trying out some blood knights + cairn wraiths if I get sick of using GG, or we expand to more points.
Just some thoughts!
Feel free to expand on this, what works / doesn't work for you particularly on how to make the magic phase work for you against these slimy toads!
Thanks for reading! :zombie:
the only way to use skellies is with lore of light yourself, or some lore that brings him down like shadow or conveniently death!
skellies are the new zombies tar pit wise. you get enough of them, lord of the dead & summon some more, then send em in!
ive used curse of years to quite the effect on a slann, not just cause it's a awesome spell, buuut more over it continues, & if he dispels it, he wastes dice. not just that but then you send your GG in, hell i did it with normal GG with a razor standard in my "soft list" & chopped em to bitz. this being said he still won mission wise & i quickly became outnumbered
Black coach, took one against a slann, made a small difference but hurt me more than him!
that being said, he treid to kill it once powered up (even with a avill of vaul near by!) it still did not die. for 200pts its the best tarpit/support unit killer in the vampire army, aside from blood knights, but there more expensive. & easier to kill.
thing is, hes TG w/ slann will try & stay away from your hardhitters, knowing it could end the game for him. TG are good but not that good... im currently rocking light, although very tempted to take shadow. biggest winner for lore of light for VC's is: CORPSE CART. enemies ignor them, knowing they can't "realy" hurt them, unit the first time you cast there bound spell of always strike first 6" after Speed of light 12" bubble.
HELLO WS10 I10 ALWAYS STRIKE FIRST ARMY, of course no one will beat that initiate & you will get re-rolls (except damnable high elves!) & you WS be so high they have to be WS 5 not to need 5's to hit you!
that being said, all warriors are WS5, but just use curse of years & watch warriors die! (or winds of undeath & hold there units up with 1 spirit host)
my house plays WoC, he has yet to win a game against my VC's & he plays a HARD LIST! actually i correct myself, he has, my vampire lord miscast & killed himself, then he won, now i always take earthing rod!
skellies are the new zombies tar pit wise. you get enough of them, lord of the dead & summon some more, then send em in!
ive used curse of years to quite the effect on a slann, not just cause it's a awesome spell, buuut more over it continues, & if he dispels it, he wastes dice. not just that but then you send your GG in, hell i did it with normal GG with a razor standard in my "soft list" & chopped em to bitz. this being said he still won mission wise & i quickly became outnumbered
Black coach, took one against a slann, made a small difference but hurt me more than him!
that being said, he treid to kill it once powered up (even with a avill of vaul near by!) it still did not die. for 200pts its the best tarpit/support unit killer in the vampire army, aside from blood knights, but there more expensive. & easier to kill.
thing is, hes TG w/ slann will try & stay away from your hardhitters, knowing it could end the game for him. TG are good but not that good... im currently rocking light, although very tempted to take shadow. biggest winner for lore of light for VC's is: CORPSE CART. enemies ignor them, knowing they can't "realy" hurt them, unit the first time you cast there bound spell of always strike first 6" after Speed of light 12" bubble.
HELLO WS10 I10 ALWAYS STRIKE FIRST ARMY, of course no one will beat that initiate & you will get re-rolls (except damnable high elves!) & you WS be so high they have to be WS 5 not to need 5's to hit you!
that being said, all warriors are WS5, but just use curse of years & watch warriors die! (or winds of undeath & hold there units up with 1 spirit host)
my house plays WoC, he has yet to win a game against my VC's & he plays a HARD LIST! actually i correct myself, he has, my vampire lord miscast & killed himself, then he won, now i always take earthing rod!