• Roll-up! Roll-up! Come one and all the fantastic Turning the World to Darkness painting competition. Welcome to any skill level, you can find out more here.
  • It's time once again to ferret out those murderous vampires in a new VAU - Vampires Amongst Us. A cross between Cluedo and a roleplay, sometimes gory and often hilarious! Find out more here.

Lore of Undeath....is it all that?

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,047
#26
Yeah, every spell in the lore can have value and be made to look important, then leveraged later too. Take curse of years for example, seems harmless at first even seems like no big deal to dispel later. But if let go, or when it finally is dispelled, it takes real effort to shut down. Doing so gives the vampire player an opportunity usually.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#27
If we cast Curse of Years on a unit and it gets through, are we required to place a marker for that unit? I don't have any markers and my opponent got all butthurt because I reminded him at the end of his magic phase (he used all dice) that Curse of Years was still in effect. His beef was that it wasn't marked for him to see. I said it was his responsibility to know what was affecting him and that I remembered just fine without a marker (tournament play, so I tend to be more of a dick). Anyways, I was wondering if this is just etiquette or my opponent wanting me to essentially sack my own spells.
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
1,244
#28
Trick with LoU is to daisy chain Necros.
12" becomes 24" becomes 36" pretty quick.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#29
Trick with LoU is to daisy chain Necros.
12" becomes 24" becomes 36" pretty quick.
How would you do that? Because no two wizards can know the same spell except the signature. So only the original Caster would know Harbinger.

On a side note, I have thought about sacking some spells with dwarves and then just using harbinger to bring up a Necro that knows the spells that I lost.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
927
#30
How would you do that? Because no two wizards can know the same spell except the signature. So only the original Caster would know Harbinger.

On a side note, I have thought about sacking some spells with dwarves and then just using harbinger to bring up a Necro that knows the spells that I lost.
Some people think that you can raise infantry characters with Ryze, as characters are "a unit of infantry"....technically.
 

Demian

Vampire Count
Joined
Oct 28, 2011
Messages
1,248
#32
I'd say raising Necros would be another attempt at Ryze with each... however, Ryze requires too many dice to be cast (16+ for the MI boosted version) and trhus consumes 4 dice.

I'd get Necros just to have more LoV casters, cheap IoN, or Spirit Leech disposable Characters within the IP range.

And channeling attempts. Those always count!
 
Joined
Jul 25, 2014
Messages
265
#33
OK so first:

I have been practicing with it for Adepticon's Team Tournament. You are only allowed a single lord choice in your contingent, thus only 1 level 4. It's performance has been sub par, but I have been leaning towards looking at swapping to vampires on my level 4 and having my partner (who is running VC) run lore of undeath on his level 2.

Second:

My other experiences with it come from games at 1000 and 1250 points. So really only enough points for a single level 4. Which again explains my lack of serious success, although it has fared better in my 1250 point games.

So it seems the sentiment is, it can be a powerful lore, but most thing it works well with lore of vamps and should be combo'd with a level 4 on vampires.

I am going to see about trying that as I get more models built and painted.

Thanks for the input.
If we cast Curse of Years on a unit and it gets through, are we required to place a marker for that unit? I don't have any markers and my opponent got all butthurt because I reminded him at the end of his magic phase (he used all dice) that Curse of Years was still in effect. His beef was that it wasn't marked for him to see. I said it was his responsibility to know what was affecting him and that I remembered just fine without a marker (tournament play, so I tend to be more of a dick). Anyways, I was wondering if this is just etiquette or my opponent wanting me to essentially sack my own spells.
I always place the spell card next to the target, so it acts as a reminder, but I don't think I've ever required that of an opponent. The spell card just acts as a natural reminder and also a quick reference for the opponent.
 

Alabaster427

Minister of Thriftiness
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Messages
1,315
#35
I always place the spell card next to the target, so it acts as a reminder, but I don't think I've ever required that of an opponent. The spell card just acts as a natural reminder and also a quick reference for the opponent.
I did that for one friendly game and it got dispelled every time during my opponent's turn, so I stopped. I learned to just make mental notes and it's worked a lot better fro me, strategically. It's like reminding Dwarves to roll Winds of Magic when you have a Periapt; it sucks (double) when you forget, but really sweet when you remember.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
927
#37
Actually we only decided that most people would house rule that you cant. By RAW there's no issues.
By RAW it's a legit interpretation, but I would say as close to a clear violation of the spirit of the rules as exists. I tend to err on the side that you can't, but all the big rules lawyers in my community (save myself!) feel the other way. Even though I'm the only one of them who plays Undead Legions...which is kind of funny.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
927
#38
I did that for one friendly game and it got dispelled every time during my opponent's turn, so I stopped. I learned to just make mental notes and it's worked a lot better fro me, strategically. It's like reminding Dwarves to roll Winds of Magic when you have a Periapt; it sucks (double) when you forget, but really sweet when you remember.

In my opponent's phase after the first time I cast it I generally give my opponent a courtesy reminder that it's a RiP spell. Just because it's an armybook lore and not everyone knows. Also because I'm making a conscious effort to improve my sportsmanship scores.

After that turn though it's their fault if they forget...which they frequently do. People get all worked up about casting their spells and forget to save dice for it, allowing it to get powered up.

Quite honestly, I actually LIKE when my opponent dispels it. Makes them waste dice that they could otherwise be using to hurt me. I don't crutch hard on my magic phase like a lot of my opponents do so if I spend 3 dice to waste 3 of theirs then that's a win for me.
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,047
#39
You can't raise characters with ryze. They have 'character' as a subtype. Only harbringers can raise character units. Even if you try to argue it, the intent is obvious. So no daisy chaining.

And honestly no offense, but to me these types of RAW arguments just hurt real RAW issues, the game and its community. Real generalship doesn't need to exploit loop holes especially ones that aren't really there.
 
Last edited:

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,047
#40
If we cast Curse of Years on a unit and it gets through, are we required to place a marker for that unit? I don't have any markers and my opponent got all butthurt because I reminded him at the end of his magic phase (he used all dice) that Curse of Years was still in effect. His beef was that it wasn't marked for him to see. I said it was his responsibility to know what was affecting him and that I remembered just fine without a marker (tournament play, so I tend to be more of a dick). Anyways, I was wondering if this is just etiquette or my opponent wanting me to essentially sack my own spells.
I put my curse of years spell card next to the unit it affects and then clearly let my opponent know what it does and when it goes off when I put it out. I will even remind them at the start of their turn or even their magic phase depending on how advanced of a player they are.

Truth is I don't care if they dispel it. When I cast CoY my intent is to have a plan for if it goes off and a plan if it doesn't. If they do dispel it, they aren't casting as many spells and you shut down their magic phase or carry two dice extra with less risk into our next magic phase (if you have the black periapt). If they don't dispel it, they are either dispelling in my turn (making my magic phase easier) or they are in a world of hurt come there turn. Players who don't stop CoY soon enough lose if you place it right. I recently reduced a unit of 40 black orcs to 7 before it got engaged in combat with one casting and the player let it go off three times, with me reminding him it was there.

Funny thing, when I cast CoY, I actually think of it as either a way to roll a huge handful of dice to soften the unit up right then OR intentional get it into play so they will dispel it on their turn so I can focus my dispel dice on less spells.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
927
#41
You can't raise characters with ryze. They have 'character' as a subtype. Only harbringers can raise character units. Even if you try to argue it, the intent is obvious. So no daisy chaining.

And honestly no offense, but to me these types of RAW arguments just hurt real RAW issues, the game and its community. Real generalship doesn't need to exploit loop holes especially ones that aren't really there.
They have the character subtype in addition to having a standard subtype. That's the issue. I agree that the interpretation runs contrary to the obvious intent of the rule, but disregarding that raising characters with Ryze (and other spells for that matter) is an interpretation that is open to be made given the wording on the page.

Hell...I even think that the first White Dwarf report with Nagash used boosted Harbinger to raise Arkhan the Black. Not that White Dwarf reports are known for rules accuracy, but still... Muddies the water of RAI.

NOTE: I'm taking a Devil's Advocate position on this. Even though I think this interpretation is open to be made, I do not support it.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,162
#43
No, it used regular harbinger to summon krell, which nagash can totally do (but shouldn't). I agree with najo, here. The intent is overwhelmingly clear. There is absolutely no point to unboosted harbinger otherwise.

As for lou on rehular casters, I've seen a lot done with it. Summoned vargheists with the boosted sig spell, orethereals with some of the others, in particular seem decent.
 

bigbadbat

Harbinger of Dandelions
True Blood
Joined
Jun 14, 2012
Messages
1,244
#44
RAW, RAI, etc...
I personally wouldn't employ such a strategy in friendly games, BUT...
if a tourney or GT rules it this way, as most around me have, then "When in Rome..." Daisy chain away! It's really brutal.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
927
#45
RAW, RAI, etc...
I personally wouldn't employ such a strategy in friendly games, BUT...
if a tourney or GT rules it this way, as most around me have, then "When in Rome..." Daisy chain away! It's really brutal.
This is basically where I stand with it. I'm a big RAW guy, but where the advantage comes from a very clear oversight by the drafter I feel dirty pushing it too far. Raising characters with Ryze and getting cauldron rerolls on impact hits and RXB shots are the sort of thing that pushes into that territory.
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,047
#46
First, by RAW, the most important rule is if we can't agree on a rule, then we roll a dice. These exploits are countered with that rule and I would use it in those circumstances where a player is essentially cheating.

Second, harbringer exists for a reason. But if that isn't enough, the rule book states that characters in addition to their troop type they are also noted as characters. Then in the character section are further described as a special type of unit. By RAW, characters are separate from the normal unit types and defined as their own type of unit.

But my main issue, when we play the game in a way that we can't look our opponent in the eyes and shake their hand, and say good job. When we can't be proud of our victory because we knowingly exploited the rules and spirit of the game then we aren't playing to enrich our community or our own skills. Winning that way is not winning, it teaches poor sportsmanhip and builds a negativity in our community that leaves players feeling cheated and possibly wanting to quit.

I'm a RAW guy, but not to the point that i compromise my integrity or the fellowship of my opponent. Us gamers should come together and play fair and honorable, we are a community and should treat each other with respect. Exploiting rules to that level where you know what your doing is lame, well... It's lame.

No disrespect intended guys, but when we play that chessy what's the point? It doesn't feel good or is fun to play with or against. There's RAW and then RAW++, which is to far.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Nov 13, 2013
Messages
927
#47
No disrespect intended guys, but when we play that chessy what's the point? It doesn't feel good or is fun to play with or against. There's RAW and then RAW++, which is to far.
What's RAW and what's RAW++ is a subjective determination. I've run into people with all sorts of ideas about what the rules should or should not entail, regardless of what they actually say. I played someone once who got angry at me for shooting a stonethrower at him on an "impossible angle." I.e. impossible according to the laws of physics, not the rules of warhammer. Indirect shots, yo? Pointing to the rule did not assuage him.

I would agree that this is probably an abusive reading of the wording. However I have played a good number of players who honestly and in good faith swear that's how it should be interpreted, and these people I was using Undeath AGAINST. It's all in the eye of the beholder.
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,047
#48
What's RAW and what's RAW++ is a subjective determination. I've run into people with all sorts of ideas about what the rules should or should not entail, regardless of what they actually say. I played someone once who got angry at me for shooting a stonethrower at him on an "impossible angle." I.e. impossible according to the laws of physics, not the rules of warhammer. Indirect shots, yo? Pointing to the rule did not assuage him.

I would agree that this is probably an abusive reading of the wording. However I have played a good number of players who honestly and in good faith swear that's how it should be interpreted, and these people I was using Undeath AGAINST. It's all in the eye of the beholder.
Yes, that's true. Eye of the beholder plays a large part. Harbringer is so obvious though. There would be no reason for the spell otherwise, and one could argue if monsters were on another spell that Harbringer just made summoning all types of characters on one spell, but that's not the case. The intent and most of the rules support that Ryze doesn't summon characters. Also, it makes no sense that the signature spell would bring in the potentially most dangerous unit type like that.

I'm 100% fine with RAW up to the point where it becomes obvious abuse. To me the line is ignoring the rules and context around the rule to make a choice counter to the intent or spirit of the game. Examples of these extreme RAW would be the whole Undead Legion and Legion of Chaos magic items debate, the twisting the wording of FAQs to heal Hexwraiths 1+Level wounds and using Ryze to summon characters when Harbringer is the spell meant for it. That is where my line is at, and when we cross that line we only encourage more of that type of abuse by players. It changes the game from friendly and camaraderie to win by rules lawyering and arguing over intentionally trying to warp the game to get an edge. And maybe that little edge helps you win a game here and there, but it poisons the fun of the game and makes people get turned off playing against you and maybe playing the game as a whole. Its not worth it.
 

Malisteen

Master Necromancer
True Blood
Joined
Sep 23, 2009
Messages
2,162
#49
Playing by that kind of tight raw works in a game with heavy testing and active errata support from the designers. Warhammer has neither.
 

najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Joined
Dec 23, 2012
Messages
2,047
#50
Playing by that kind of tight raw works in a game with heavy testing and active errata support from the designers. Warhammer has neither.
Ethereal healing was FAQ'd, but the extreme RAW players ignored it because the example used vampiric units, even though the rule it was clarifying included large and ethereal and only separated them with commas. The other two are players ignoring obvious intent. The situations I'm giving examples of are not because of lack of rules or FAQs, it's players trying to bend a slight oversight to become a exploit they can some how turn into an advantage. Ironically, an advantage that isn't worth the consequences and bad blood it creates.

We as players should treat each other with respect. Would you want someone blind siding you with an exploit and then arguing about it instead of letting it go or dicing off about it? It interrupts the flow of the game and kills any fun we were having with each other. That's my point.
 
Top