LVO 2022 reveals

[Unas the slayer]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/14/will-you-become-predator-or-prey-in-the-latest-warhammer-age-of-sigmar-battlescroll-update/

going from negatives to positives

1 - it's clearly a patch. It's basically GW that admits that they screwed heavily a lot of warscrolls and even battletomes
2 - it's debatable. No targets for Soulblight? Salamanders are targets? Pink horrors?
3 - it's a further element in a game that is already becoming bloated

4 - it's good because points increases / decreases are worthless. if a unit is good you play it nonetheless, if a unit is bad you don't play it nontheless. In this way, you can effectively think on it, It's more of a choice.
5 - finally i will be effectively rewarded if i play a currently underdog army (Nighthaunts...)
6 - it will hopefully put a limit to boring spammy lists.

 

[Rapscallion]

I found it amusing that nothing in Death caused any concern. Basically, we are easy to kill.

 

[The Sun King]

But that is a good thing Rapscallion - Nighthaunt and Bonereapers are getting Hunters because they are old books and Soulblight Gravelords didnt get either because it is a new and well balanced book. Notice that Maggotkin is not present anywhere either and that is also a book specifically written for 3rd and it is well balanced.

It is a creative approach to balancing and Im looking forward to seeing how it plays out.

It is good for my specific gaming group as we have two Sylvaneth, one Skaven, one Nighthaunt (me) and one Gloomspite player

 

[Unas the slayer]

But that is a good thing Rapscallion - Nighthaunt and Bonereapers are getting Hunters because they are old books and Soulblight Gravelords didnt get either because it is a new and well balanced book. Notice that Maggotkin is not present anywhere either and that is also a book specifically written for 3rd and it is well balanced.

it's a little weird that nothing in our battletome was listed as target. At least one of those units:

1 - Zombies were potentially good, given that a great number of lists fits them in, in 1-2 groups of 40, supported by heroes. After all, if there are pink horrors...
2 - VLoZD? it's a model that hits as a ton of bricks, can heal, got high move and it's trivial to bring it to a save 2+, totally ignoring rend -1
3 - Mannfred? He's not at Sevireth's level, but his CA is over the top and he's basically impossible to kill without some serious shooting.


Anway, some general considerations:

For a SoB army 2 pts is punishing. I get it's a trade-off for their ability to just dominate objectives 'cause they count as 35 models, making it impossible to quickly steal objectives. But with the right battle tactic, a Sylvaneth player that kills one giant with Durthu takes SEVEN vps only for the killing.

I think it's a very good limitation to the SCE dragon guard spam armies, as it's a clear disadvantage to just bringing a mono-army. And mono-armies are kinda lame, so discouraging that is good idea.

And I can imagine it'd work well on certain specific units, like some of the god-models. It's a fitting trade-off for how much power you pour into 1 model, thus resulting in a guaranteed local point-supremacy, wherever that unit is.

However, adding it to seemingly random units like Salamanders and Pink Horrors simply because they're supposedly OP is questionable at best.
It doesn't adress whatever is making that unit OP. And it's a rather weird mechanic to put on certain unit types. The pink horrors probably being the worst example of this as it directly conflicts with their role as tar-pit as well as there not being any real alternatives for Tzeentch anyway.

 

[Rapscallion]

I do not believe this update changes the balance much at all. The top armies and units did not worry about killing the targeted units already. While those that struggle to kill them will still struggle. I am happy to see GW addressing some glaring issues but I think there is more work to be done.

Overall, I am happy that GW is taking an active interest in community feedback. I just hope they look at other solutions to address balance. Relook some rules interactions or how things are described on war scrolls. Points adjustments are largely ineffective as people will still take what is good.

It is tough for GW to balance rules vs. model sales. I do not say that to be critical but only point out that they write rules to sell models.

 

[The Sun King]

Rapscallion I actually disagree with the notion that GW writes rules to sell models. I've seen a lot of editions and models come and go - and there has not been a consistent "the new model is OP" thing.

I also think that it is way too early to say whether this approach will work or not. It is a novel approach and one that adds strategic considerations during list building so I'm excited about it. Only time will tell if it has the impact that we hope it will.

Unas the slayer the only model I could see go on the list from SBG would be Manny. Zombies are good, true, but they are not upsetting the meta in any way. The Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon is pretty easy to kill for most armies so I have actually come down a long way on that unit.

 

[Unas the slayer]

Unas the slayer the only model I could see go on the list from SBG would be Manny. Zombies are good, true, but they are not upsetting the meta in any way. The Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon is pretty easy to kill for most armies so I have actually come down a long way on that unit.

Well, yes. I tend to agree.
however this is exactly the kind of thing that i have in mind when i say that some choices are debatable.
Are pink horrors so OP that they are included and zombies are not? horrors are cannonfodder, they are supposed to die.
A megaboss on mawcrusha is worth 1 pts... is it really so deadly or so overpowered, when compared to a VLoZD?

Plus, while i like the concept, i disagree with the approach... it seems they are punishing some units because they appears too frequently on the tournaments lists. But that's not related to the effective power of the units itself.
Yes, many seraphon armies in competitive levels take salamanders. But that's not because salamanders are OP... it's because they are the only source of rend -2 for seraphon, and when you face monsters or elite units that start from save 3+, which becomes 2+ with All out defense... salamanders are the only thing Seraphon can bring to the table to deal with them.
A salamander packs got 7 wounds and shoots at 12". Seraphon players field reinforced unit(s). 14 wounds, save 4+, that will give away 2 points (or more, agains "weak" armies). Compare them to a mawcrusha.

So: i really like the mechanic, but i'm convinced that GW (once again) doesn't understad how to apply it in an effective way.

 

[Oppenheimer]

I don't have a ton to say, except that it is a bizarre blunt hack job at balance. I don't play competitively so it's a moot point, but it really rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Unas the slayer]

Nighthaunts: Craventhrone Guards (partially) revealed.


what a joke... i hope the new battletome will be better than this.

...but who knows? Maybe they will act as bodyguards with 2 wounds each. That alone would be good.

 

[Rapscallion]

I really hope that there is more to this warscroll than what we have been shown.

 

[The Sun King]

What are you on about guys? Two shots with rend that can shoot from invisible positions coupled with good movement and Fly seems like a really strong unit.

 

[Unas the slayer]

What are you on about guys? Two shots with rend that can shoot from invisible positions coupled with good movement and Fly seems like a really strong unit.

Well, at 4+/4+ is rather underwhelming. A unit of 5 dudes will force 2-3 saves.
This, coupled with the abysmal 12" range, feels like a wasted opportunity.
But maybe their strenght will lies somewhere else.

Anyway.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/24/warhammer-preview-online-adepticon-all-the-massive-reveals-are-right-here/

Interesting new Nighthaunts hero. Well, the miniature is stellar.

 

[Oppenheimer]

I like the new Nighthaunt boat guy. Great model.

 

[The Sun King]

Well, at 4+/4+ is rather underwhelming. A unit of 5 dudes will force 2-3 saves. This, coupled with the abysmal 12" range, feels like a wasted opportunity. But maybe their strenght will lies somewhere else. Anyway.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/03/24/warhammer-preview-online-adepticon-all-the-massive-reveals-are-right-here/

Interesting new Nighthaunts hero. Well, the miniature is stellar.

With 6" move and fly I think that 12" will be fine. Seems like the awesome boat ghost can ferry them around the board as well.

I'm not too concerned with the 4+/4+ as Nighthaunt traditionally have a lot of ways to buff their units. Even just with All Out Attack you can start putting down the hurt with a unit of 10 Cravenguard.

One thing I would like to caution before the new Nighthaunt book comes out: give the book time. Everyone and their grandma was dissing the new Maggotkin book, because they compared it with their old one. However, turns out that the new book is great and performs well, it is just designed for 3rd.

 

[Unas the slayer]

One thing I would like to caution before the new Nighthaunt book comes out: give the book time.

on that i wholly agree. it's just that to buff a 4+/4+ is different than to buff a better stat.
But the more i think on it, the more i'm convinced the utility of that unit will not be the shooting.

 

[The Sun King]

I really hope (but I think it won't be the case) that Nighthaunt gets more normal units - I'm not a fan of the disproportionate amount of heroes compared to units in that faction.

 

[Unas the slayer]

I really hope (but I think it won't be the case) that Nighthaunt gets more normal units - I'm not a fan of the disproportionate amount of heroes compared to units in that faction.

At least the crossbow dudes is a new unit.
Fyreslayers don’t have neither that.

 

[Sception]

The range on its own isnt terrible given deep strike & fast nighthaunt movement. But at 12" the ability to shoot from out of line of sight isn't going to be particularly relevant, and 4+/4+ means they aren't causing much damage without extra effort & points invested in buffing them.

I'm not wowed, but im not ready to write them off either.

As for the boat guy, without seeing its rules i feel the same as the scribe: amazing model, i love it. Another support hero isn't exactly what the faction needs, but I can't begrudge anything that looks so cool. Still have my fingers crossed for a lroper monster, though.

 

[The Sun King]

I'm interested to know why you don't think 12" Range without line of sight will be relevant? At the very least it will force the opponent to consider staying away from terrain. I to me dictating movement and deployment is a key to success.

 

[Unas the slayer]

I'm interested to know why you don't think 12" Range without line of sight will be relevant? At the very least it will force the opponent to consider staying away from terrain. I to me dictating movement and deployment is a key to success.

More than forcing opponent away from terrains, it makes terrains irrelevant for cover purposes. It's hardly a deterrent.

 

[Unas the slayer]

The warscrolls for the box' Nighthaunts are... disheartening.

 

[Unas the slayer]

Nighthaunts book leaked!

https://imgur.com/a/c8EaGSJ

 

[Unas the slayer]

After a quick glance, they losed something (MWs spam with spirit hosts, raising abilities with the general and other things), but all in all they were also buffed and it seems a balanced battletome, certainly without anything broken.

But there's one thing that irks me A LOT, and i cannot pass over it.
Lady Olinder, a wizard as the commander in chief of a whole faction... and not even a measly +1 to cast? Seriously gw? good job, once again


Another thing i have some issue with:
There is a couple of strong subfactions: one that lets you inflict MWs on charge on a 5+ for each charging model, and one that negates Ward saves.
- the "MWs on 5+" works only with bladegheist
- the "no ward" works only with Dreadshyte harridans (a unit that lacks rend, so it helps in dealing some damage but is not broken)

i don't particularly like when a battletome basically forces me to "play this unit minimum 3x"

 

[The Sun King]

Wow! Nighthaunts really got a huge power bump! I love it. Cannot wait to smash face with this revamped army :O

 

[Sception]

I'm not sure. Having gone over the leaked pages...

The good:

• Olynder much improved, now a figure worthy of the 'Mortarch' title.
• Bodyguard spirit hosts gives a reason for spirit hosts to still exist after losing mortal wounds, and makes nighthaunt's various support heroes much more viable
• new faction rules look so, so fun. faction wide retreat & charge? neat charge benefits (less impactful than extra combat round, but also more reliable), terrify & other abilities keying off of it, less deep strike but now as a tricksy redeploy option. good stuff overall

The bad:

• Where monster? I like the boat guy, he looks useful, but there was one thing this faction needed more than anything else, and it wasn't another support hero. It was a hard hitting monster outside of half-your-army nagash.
• I still feel like there's too much overlap between the multiple support heroes and multiple semi-elite ghostly 'infantry' units.
• command traits and artefacts feel a bit lackluster to me

The ugly:

• How does this army deal damage?
• No, but seriously, almost all of the mortal wound output is gone, most of what's left is single damage melee attacks with maybe a pip of rend
• nearly every unit got more expensive - but that increased cost has gone into maneuverability or durability or tricksy shenanigans and almost none of it has gone into damage output leaving the entire faction more pillow-fisted than ever, and that's before you consider that
• the new version of frightful touch is not helping here
• Tomb Banshees don't even scream anymore
• seriously, you can deep strike, teleport, charge, retreat, and charge again all you want, but if you're up against any sort of tanky opponent - sigmarines, seraphon, obr, what have you - it feels like they're just going to laugh off everything you do.

Overall, I'm happier with the new rules than the old, especially making olynder strong and cool. Hopefully I'm just wrong or not seeing something re: damage output.

I haven't to this point really bought into nighthaunt. I might this time around, but that depends on what we see in terms of re=packaged releases. I'd need, at minimum, a really solid start collecting box, or for chainrasps to be repackaged in a box of 20 for around the same price point as SBGL skeletons & zombies.