Marching Within 8" of Enemy

[GhoulKing505]

So this might have been answered already but do our models still have to take a leadership test in order to march if they are within 8" of an enemy unit?

Obviously they are within the general's march bubble when trying to do this. My answer, as far as I'm aware, is yes, they need to take the leadership test. I'm just dumbfounded as to why that would be. I feel like all ITP units shouldn't have to but I'm finding no rules to state otherwise. I'm just trying to make sure I didn't miss an errata or an FAQ or something.

Thanks for the help.

 

[najo]

Yes they do. Think of it as enemy are close it requires finer control of nearby leaders to maintain control over the undead regiments. Undead still are driven like they were when alive to an extent. Thats part of the reason undead can keep fighting while crumbling if all their lore of vampire casters are dead.

 

[Zhatan]

@GhoulKing505
Yeah you have to test. There are alot of stuff I think is kind of wierd considering undead, poison, restraining pursuit etc. but that's they way it is.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

They really need to change allot of the rules around undead armies.
Sad thing is they likely won't because they want to streamline the rules and keep it simple but illogical.

 

[Zhatan]

@Duke Danse Macabre
I also think that is a balance issue. If they made undead in such a way that they made sense then I think they would be very overpowered.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Perhaps but they should meet us part way if fear is nearly worthless, we crumble horribly and we have to take leadership tests on what is essentially a ill mannered kitchen appliance which just so happens to also be our troops.

 

[najo]

I think they fix fear and terror, make it something scary but not game breaking, and undead end up in a good place. I see two options:
1) either make it so BSB doesn't allow fear and terror rerolls
2) or make enemy units suffer -1 to leadership on fear checks if fear causing unit has more ranks

You could have both effects too.

 

[Zhatan]

@Duke Danse Macabre @najo
Yes fear needs to be fixed though I'm fine with terror. It's decent.
The problem I have with crumble is that it makes units that's supposed to have lots of crappy models really suffer. That is so sad to me as I would loke to field hordes of zombies because they are so cool.
Crumble is fine with our better units as being ItP and Unbreakable makes up for loosing a few models.

*Edit
Mixed up crumble and unstable. What I meant was I have a problem with unstable for units like zombies.

 

[najo]

My issue with terror is that a unit tests if charged, and flees if failed. But if a unit wishes to charge they can just do so as if terror didn't matter. I think terror should require a test to charge potentially. Also, if you would have to test for terror, it should automatically cause fear.

I think fear test should apply rank modifier from the fear causer to the units affected by fear. Like a reverse skaven rule.

 

[Zhatan]

The test to charge is not a bad idéa but I still think terror is pretty decent as is too.
Your fix for fear is a step in the right direction but I still feel that our troops low ws generally makes lowering their ws accomplish very little. Also this does not improve the usefulness of the screaming banner + fear incarnate combo that currently does very little for it's cost imo. I think that rather then increasing how often you can get fear off you should improve the effects slightly.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Fear and terror as themselves are find but linked in with the insane leadership these days and rerolls i just is not a concern like what it should be.
I'm still sad they removed the outnumbered bonus in combat, perhaps they could add it in as an army rule for ourselves that would give extra combat rez or minuses to enemy leadership over a certain number.
Say -D3 leadership on fear tests if you outnumber the foe two to one.
This would make the units allot more viable and make hordes of undead work like they should.

Charging a terror causing foe should have some minus affiliated with it, as it is they don't even bat an eyelid.


We are starting to get a little off topic now though truth be told.

 

[Skittelz1981]

imo Terror is broken even worse than fear. Watch this scenario:
-So my Mortis Engine charges
-enemy rolls for terror and fails, now it flees. (which already sux since i wanted to get into that combat)
-its too far for Mortis to catch up so redirect (which sux since maybe there is no good target for it to redirect into)
-new target also fails terror test and fails as well
-now mortis engine has a failed charge. :swear:

Sorry? come again? i have a failed charge because the noobs of enemies are fleeing in absolute Terror?
So i get punished for being too terrible? This is THE most broken piece of crap ive ever had.
Terror should be a boon, something you can actually use with effectivity rather than being forced to redirect to avoid having a failed charge. Even redirecting might not necessarily be what you want. Im actually more scared to charge with one of my terrorcausing unit, what if that enemy flees in Terror? it would jinx my entire charge. Especially since most rallies are quite easily done and poof there is the unit again but now you cant charge it since its too far away after a succesful flee and a failed charge.
Something is Terrorbly wrong with the Terror special rule.

 

[Zhatan]

@Skittelz1981
Well thats more of an issue with how failinga charge works. I never understood why they made a failed charge so short... or maybe they should differentiate between a failed charge and a charge where the opponent fled. Anyway opponents fleeing are a good thing imo... even if they rally later on chances are they are not in a good position anymore and they have the potential to set of multiple flights if they flee through other units.

@Duke Danse Macabre
If the enemy palys well and keeps with in the generals leadership and BSB rerolls then sure Terror is not that great but I think that is meant to be that way. The opponent is rewarded for having his army organized. Often one or two units will leave the generals bubble and try to flank or something so those are good targets for terror.

 

[najo]

@Duke Danse Macabre @najo
Yes fear needs to be fixed though I'm fine with terror. It's decent.
The problem I have with crumble is that it makes units that's supposed to have lots of crappy models really suffer. That is so sad to me as I would loke to field hordes of zombies because they are so cool.
Crumble is fine with our better units as being ItP and Unbreakable makes up for loosing a few models.

*Edit
Mixed up crumble and unstable. What I meant was I have a problem with unstable for units like zombies.

You put enough crappy undead in a unit and that unit still isn't going anywhere. Especially zombies since the summon up so easily.

Crumble is very powerful when managed well. There are some tricks to it. Like don't combo charge the crappy units with the power units unless you have reliable way to win combat by a decent margin. I always hear players complaining about undead crumble like its a handicap, when to me its an asset.

 

[Zhatan]

You put enough crappy undead in a unit and that unit still isn't going anywhere. Especially zombies since the summon up so easily.

Crumble is very powerful when managed well. There are some tricks to it. Like don't combo charge the crappy units with the power units unless you have reliable way to win combat by a decent margin. I always hear players complaining about undead crumble like its a handicap, when to me its an asset.

It can be both imo depending on the unit. For weak units like zombies where you can easily loose 20 in one round and then loose 20 more to instability its a con imo. Thats 40per combat round which could mean loosing 80 in one game turn. Thats hard to raise back and your PD might be better used on something else.

On a tough unit like Crypt Horrors its a pro for sure.

 

[najo]

I know I calculate crumble estimates and worse case scenarios before I get into combat. I find that you throw dire wolves or raised zombies in front of things like mournfangs. Zombies do bleed out combat result and crumble easily, but when managed, they keep it below 10. You can have a 20 man unit make it through a full turn and get healed up.

I do know it is critical to get good at setting up to receive charges. Like, that is our thing. We are better when getting charged and then going into our turn to heal up before the next combat round. That 1/2 turn difference is usually where we gain ground and win the grind.