Marriage and Vampirism

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Like wise but I will also point out for vampires in most books its more about the partnership than mating, indeed mating is never mentioned with Vlad and Isabella or indeed Neferata but if you see "Nights Dark Masters" it gives an extract from Neferata: "I loved him the moment I laid eyes on him"

Also Isabella as a mortal was never mad, after she became a Vampire her first feeding was on a wolf which was not intentional which made her a more twisted but by no means mad as was Vlads most trusted and loved.
Mannfred himself stated: "He did not love me most, no that title belongs to Isabella but he certainly loved me longest"

 

[Johnny-Crass]

In general apart from rare exceptions I doubt vampires can feel true love, although perhaps the more "human" vampires (Lahmians and von Carsteins) find comfort in pretending.

[video=youtube]http://youtu.be/VVmbhYKDKfU[/video]

Fixxed that for you Sanai

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Haha, I see someone posted the obligatory reply to the question of the existence of love. But I think the SNL version may be more appropriate here:

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpwK3vFGJp0[/video]

 

[Bounce]

You could look on the other side why other races don't have relationships.
It sort of makes sense Lizardmen, Skaven, Demons and Tomb Kings are particularly romantic.
Brettonians have the whole Lady of the Lake/Damsel thing which is pretty fairy tale love disney style.
Empire- You get the feeling women don't exist in the empire.
High Elves are a bit too noble to engage in sex.
Wood Elves- Don't know a lot about their fluff but I believe they do have a King and Queen with stuff going on there.
Chaos- Is only really interested in sex as a competitive sport at best.
Dark Elves- You probably don't want to get involved with any of their females as they will sacrifice you to Khaine given half a chance.

 

[Whisky Priest]

In the old WFRP book 'Night's Dark Masters', it is stated that vampires are 'creatures of pure passion' and are fully capable of (romantic) love, but that the dark kiss removes the inhibitions and they tend to do it, like everything else, to extremes. They are fully capable of love toward other vampires, mortals and, in the case of Konrad, his horse........

NDM also states that vampires are not inherently evil, and certainly don't regard themselves as such, being more of an extreme version of their mortal personality, with certain inherent character traits passed on from the bloodline. It's just that their goals and motivations (and feeding habits) are somewhat alien to the normal human mind, and as such are regarded by humanity as THE ENEMY!!!!!!!!!!

However, GW appears to have conveniently forgotten that WFRP ever existed and have retconned the vampires into evil, unrepentant baby eating monsters. So the idea of the romantic vampire anti-hero (like Genevieve) or sympathetic villain (like Vlad) are gone for good, and everything needs to have black or white morality now.

 

[Bounce]

If you want your grey moral vampire though there are now a wealth of other books out there while the good old pure evil villain is becoming quite rare.

 

[Whisky Priest]

True - I like my gothic literature, though. I quite like the idea of the Poe-esque tragic monster.

NOT, I have to add, the Twilight-esque sparkly "monster" :O

 

[Reece Thompson]

Given how the history of Vampirism goes, it makes a lot of sense that there would be some romantic involvement.

Vampirism wasn't always a quick nip on the neck and you're done. They changed it to that to suite the younger children.

For the old ways of Vampirism, it usually was Romance driven... or a late night job for quick cash...

Personally, I like that fact that the VC have romance somewhere in their story. I'll admit, I'm a blood hound and if a story does't have fighting and bloodshed and death and stuff, then I do get a bit bored, but having characters in a relationship, it gives them a real good reason to fight. And that's what I like reading about as well.

 

[Aren]

I can understand why GW wanted to make them emotionless, to lead them away from the sparkly side. Yet I think they went a bit too far. Vampires still have blood (otherwise they could make any more vampires) and so having sex is well within their capability. I do not think they confuse lust with love, as I imagine blood is better than sex for them. To be able to say if they love we have to ask ourselves: are vampires irrational? As love itself is irrational. My view is yes they are, examples: vlad, Isabella and very much so Konrad. So they can love, in fact possibly deeper and definitely longer than humans. Although marriage is more a social and religious affair so I doubt they marry, apart from obviously to gain something, like an ally.

 

[frankenstine]

they may have sex till they were married but then when they get married the sex would go out the window lol it always does

 

[Mello]

Co-habitation (being in a relationship) is very common for Vampires, Isabella and Vlad for example. It is not uncommon for a vampire to fall in love with a human and turn her/him into a vampire so that they can spend eternity with each other, hence a lot of couples.

Marriage on the other hand, I'm not sure why vampires would go through a religious ceremony.. They'd just live together, they wouldn't see why they need to make it official in human's eyes..

 

[Sweeney Todd]

It's a good point that marriage, as in the ceremonies and rituals associated with that word would be largely meaningless to a vampire, as human norms tie these to religion, and religion in the Warhammer world generally doesn't get along with vampires. It would be better to call it something else, because for vampires it would be merely an affirmation of attraction to each other without the host of connotations we humans put on that word.

I don't think sex would go out of the window when it comes to vampires. That would merely be projecting our preconceptions onto beings that are in many fundamental ways different from us. After all, vampires do not settle down, get a job and raise a family like humans do; they are completely incapable of even having children in that way, and money would be of much less significance to them. Vampires have no retirement age because they literally live forever. As for sex, the way I see it, it is one of the remaining motivations behind such a relationship. If you take that away, it becomes hard in my mind to justify any kind of relationship between vampires.

 

[Whisky Priest]

As for sex, the way I see it, it is one of the remaining motivations behind such a relationship. If you take that away, it becomes hard in my mind to justify any kind of relationship between vampires.

Loneliness. Vampires are not inhererently solitary beasts (except the Strigoi and Necrarchs who are either too monstrous or too paranoid to exist in a structured society) and loneliness - or rather the desire for companionship through the years - would be a strong motivator. Its a strong motivator for us mortal humans - and vampires have a lot, lot longer to get maudlin........

Vampires were once human, and are still capable of the full range of human emotions (to extremes, actually) and thus are prey to the basic needs and wants that go hand in hand with that.

 

[Lynks]

Vampires can have fun times... it's just a different sort of fun time. less hiding the sausage and more slicing the sausage up in a bestial frenzy and drinking the blood, followed by repeating the same procedure on the hidey-hole. The Ulrika books go into this aspect quite well

 

[Count Matthewzilla]

Hmm... Are her books any good. I haven't read any vamp books from black library since finishing the carstien trilogy.

Just reread dracula and started Valkia the Bloody, which is actually quite good.

As for the topic, yes loneliness would be a motivator. Forever is a long time to spend it on your own.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Loneliness. Vampires are not inhererently solitary beasts (except the Strigoi and Necrarchs who are either too monstrous or too paranoid to exist in a structured society) and loneliness - or rather the desire for companionship through the years - would be a strong motivator. Its a strong motivator for us mortal humans - and vampires have a lot, lot longer to get maudlin........

Vampires were once human, and are still capable of the full range of human emotions (to extremes, actually) and thus are prey to the basic needs and wants that go hand in hand with that.

Touche. But it seems to me to be to be a minor motivator. Vampires could friendzone each other just like how humans do, I reckon(all talk and no action if you know what I mean erv. I imagine that for those vamps who play the game of thrones, marriage may often be not worth it, due to the ways it can go wrong(betrayed by partner, marriage used somehow by enemy for leverage, etc)

PS: I'm bit leery of Black Library books for WHFB, what with all the unnecessary retconning going on. But it seems I may just have to pick up Ulrika.

 

[Mello]

Ulrika is an amazing series!

Either way, although I would feel lonliness may contribute at the beginning of a vampire's life, later on after they have lived long enough they will grow wise enough to realise that most people they befriend will either die or end up betraying them. Especially other vampires, unless they are a very rigid structured society like a lahmian sisterhood or a group of blood dragons. Vampries are very compulsive creatures, which is what all (except strigoi) try to fight with all the time, hence why social groups don't come easy to them.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

I am still of the opinion that Malekith is banging his mom, but that is neither here nor there.

On the subject of vampires and marriage I could see it being used to infiltrate into human bloodlines and kingdoms thus securing themselves a seat of power without all out war.

 

[Count Krieger von Blutstein]

This really is an interesting discussion. While many have mentioned the need for companionship and sexual satisfaction as motivators, I'm surprised no one has brought up another strong push towards having a relationship, especially initially after being altered into a vampire (give or take a century or two).

Longing for what you have lost.

If you have just lost your humanity, or what you thought was your humanity, there are several ways your mind can go with that pain. One of them is a desperate need to reaffirm that your core is still very much you, very much human. I can see two new vampires forming a bond of pure emotional need in that situation. I can also see potentially strife-filled times ahead for a new vampire who has latched onto one of their elders due to this need, with the elder being unenthused about having to deal with all that nonsense. After all, feeling for someone, and needing someone to feel for you, is a very, very human thing.

As for actual marriage ceremonies, well, I would not be caught off guard if there were vampire couples who either wrote their own rites or used the ones they knew as people, possibly with some alterations. Ceremony and public declarations of love are not merely religious. Atheists still get married in public ceremonies, in churches, even, due to that basic human need for ritual and display of emotion. What's more, especially for men (and this is tried and true sociology, I had the blessing of attending a short seminar on marriage by an excellent mind), public demonstrations of inner emotion, especially declarations of loyalty and love, do serve to cement the relationship moreso than a couple who just simply starts living together.

I see no reason why it should be any different for vampires.

 

[Chaos Zombie]

Well said.
Another factor would be people blooded out of love, though from what this thread is saying this is something out of character, for an experienced vampire at least. What are the chances of a freshly blooded vampire doing this, however?

 

[Whisky Priest]

Well said.
Another factor would be people blooded out of love, though from what this thread is saying this is something out of character, for an experienced vampire at least. What are the chances of a freshly blooded vampire doing this, however?

Pretty high. And the same for experienced vampires for that matter. NDM goes into detail on the fact that vamps are quite capable of romantic love - with humans as well as other vampires - and won't hesitate to turn the object of their affection.

 

[Mello]

I'd argue that this'd happen to an experienced vampire too. Seeing as receiving any form of bite from a vampire ends up with you infatuated with them. All it really requires is that the vampire likes the physical appearance of the human, and hey presto a happy relationship, seeing as one will do the will of the other. Turning the human will just be a matter of time.

 

[Lynks]

It would probably happen far less frequently. I imagine older vampires would be far more likely to become attached to people from their own time, which means they turned them way back in the day and have been together forever essentially. I imagine an experienced vampire would be far more jaded and less likely to begin a relationship with some human, or if they did the relationship would be extremely one sides with the younger vampire fawning over the elder one and the elder not caring too much. Of course there would be exceptions to this.

 

[Mello]

Yeah, it's less likely, granted. But I'd wager its still possible.

 

[Whisky Priest]

It would probably happen far less frequently. I imagine older vampires would be far more likely to become attached to people from their own time, which means they turned them way back in the day and have been together forever essentially. I imagine an experienced vampire would be far more jaded and less likely to begin a relationship with some human, or if they did the relationship would be extremely one sides with the younger vampire fawning over the elder one and the elder not caring too much. Of course there would be exceptions to this.

From a human perspective - I think you are 100% right. A normal human would eventually become completely dissociated from the mass of mortal humans (explained very well on page 2 of this: http://www.cracked.com/article_17185_7-awesome-super-powers-ruined-by-science_p2.html) i they were immortal.

On the other hand, a vampire, in Warhammer terms, is effectively frozen at the moment of turning - evolving emotionally and mentally at a much slower rate than a normal human. As such they would retain the human outlook they had the moment of their 'birth' for a considerable length of time before becoming disociated from mortal society. Beyond that, they would become cold and quite alien to the human mind. Of course, there will be some vampires who strive to retain their humanity even in these circumstances.

So, I think its all a matter of perspective for the individuial vampire.

And the bloodline, for that matter.

Von Carsteins are bred to be superior and to be the masters of their human cattle. While some will form romantic bonds with humans (such as Vlad and Isabella), it's likely to come from the noble classes when it happens. As such, siring is going to be more politically motivated than romantic, but there will still be a fair share of von Carsteins that do it for love.

Blood Dragons sire other vampires purely from respect of their skill at arms. Love and marriage do not come into it.

Strigoi are quite capable of forming romantic bonds with mortals (the 'Gashnagg, the Black Prince' quotes in NDM and VC 7th ed show this), but their monstrous nature means that humans are unlikely to be attracted them, making it quite unlikely.

Necrarchs are so completely alien in their mindset that they are unlikely to be capable of love of any kind any more.

And so, to the Lahmians. The Lahmians, more than any other bloodline, have contact with mortal humans on a day to day basis. As such, they are the most likely to form romantic liaisons with humans (and they do, if Genevieve from the novels is anything to go by, as she seems to end up falling for anything that moves). Interestingly, though, they don't tend to turn men as a matter of course (Lesbian Vampire Killers, anyone?)