Legion of Nagash Monster Mounts

[Disciple of Nagash]

Bishop said it right. There is nothing wrong with something that is difficult to deal with, pointed appropriately. I would also point out that in 90% of situations this will not be an issue as pretty much every army now has been given either a tool to deal with Ethereal creatures, or to deal with regen.

I'm sorry henk by I disagree with the notion that because one type of build might have trouble it makes the whole concept wrong. I can quite easily counter by saying that normal HE ( normally decent magic), DE (decent magic), WE (forest spirits), Dwarves (runic warmachines), DoC (nuff said), WoC (easily have enough magic), Skaven (warpstone weapons) all would quite easily destroy the relatively low toughness Dragon Shade.

I would also say on return, what about things such as the Steam Tank, where whole armies, not just certain builds have issues with it? VC have no reliable way to try and deal with the damn thing, in the same way they find it difficult to deal with monsters such as Greater Deamons.

So all in all, I find your argument lacking in some areas............

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

How dare you offend Thomas the Tanky Engine Like that Bishop!

Now i've got to do an empire army with a steam tank...Very heavily converted

I think the will be fine if pointed correctly, my only problem is I think the acient dragon has 1 too many wounds, but its low WS makes up for it.

Now onto the points of the dragons...Yeah it should definatly be a 3 digit number :tongue:.

I agree with marcus on the points of the other steeds.

Edit- About the rule that causes fear in other dragons, could you just put it doesn't effect dragons ItP instead of saying dragon shade and zombie dragon.

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

Several things:
1) I agree with Bishop and DoN here, as long as their pointed correctly they Dragons should be fine. Henk, your argument needs to be thought out - I mean by all means feel free to argue - but there are a lot of people on here who can argue back very well.
2) Good point CRD, that would be an easier way to put it.
3) Yay! Im glad someone agreed with my points. Although im not sure if perhaps their a little too cheap, after all how much would people say undead was worth?
4) I really dont want to try and point the dragons...

 

[henk]

well i really cant talk about steam tanks cause i only faced one once and that was with dwarfs funny game that was hit it twice with my catapult and rolled 2 1's to wound but using deamons as an example is not the best way to argue that something is not overpowered. i think im just gonna call it a day on this one and give up trying to argue my point. if you need anything just pm me and ill be glad to help

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

OK, I have updated the first post with points costs.

The only things that need pricing up now are the two dragons. Any suggestions at all?

 

[doombunny666]

450pts for the Ancient Bone? it should be a lot seeing as with a good CC character on top it can murder a unit.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Hmm, that's a lot of points..............

However after consulting the HE Star Dragon, I have to agree it is about right. Though it looses some WS and armour save, it gains regen and fear causing in other dragons. So I would go for 450pts as well.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Right considering there was no more comments, I have put in 450pts for the Ancient Bone Dragon. Has anyone any ideas on the Dragon Shade?

 

[Spook290]

would ethereal characters be able to ride the dragon shade? seems like a very powerful combo, seeing though with fly+ethereal you can easily pick your fights to ensure you cant be touched, especially flying into flanks with characters being tied up towards the front, i think the points should be similar to the ancient bone dragon, maybe a little cheaper at 400 points.
i love the idea of a monstrous ethereal mount

 

[Sweeney Todd]

A valid question, Spook, however no the two Ethereal characters in the Legion of Nagash cannot ride the Dragon Shade(for good reason I'd say) I do agree that the Shade should be as expensive if not more so than the Bone Dragon.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I don't think both dragons should be 400+ pts its too many they wouldn't be used in 2000/2250 pt games, I think one of the dragons needs making weaker so its around 300 or less points.

About the rule that causes fear in other dragons, could you just put it doesn't effect dragons ItP instead of saying dragon shade and zombie dragon. Also maby put monsterous mounts instead of dragons as there could be some argueing to what is actually a dragon.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I don't think both dragons should be 400+ pts its too many they wouldn't be used in 2000/2250 pt games, I think one of the dragons needs making weaker so its around 300 or less points.

About the rule that causes fear in other dragons, could you just put it doesn't effect dragons ItP instead of saying dragon shade and zombie dragon. Also maby put monsterous mounts instead of dragons as there could be some argueing to what is actually a dragon.

The thing is, while all dragons are monstrous mounts, not all monstrous mounts are dragons. As the reverse is untrue, to state that the Bone Dragon causes fear in all monstrous mounts would have a much greater effect than what you have in mind.

 

[doombunny666]

So a dragon is scared of it but a Gryphon isnt a bit wierd...

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

The reason why a dragon would be scared, is because when they are confronted by the abused forms of their ancestors, they have the intelligence to be worried about their own mortality.

 

[Spook290]

any plans for a breath weapon for the dragon shade?
maybe one that ignores ward saves but not armour with a low strength? as it will be more of an ethereal wind type of thing that hits the souls of those who are hit? or maybe force a T test

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

The dragon shade has its Essence of Decay rule, which replaces a dragon’s breath attack. Personally I don’t think the Dragon Shade is as powerful as it is being made out to be. It’s stats are nothing to write home about, it crumbles if it’s rider is lost, and most armies have options to more than adequately deal with ethereal creatures. Think of why no one takes the ethereal ability for vamps, as it leaves them with no armour save and very vulnerable, I see the same vulnerability in the DS. Personally I would price it around the 375pts mark.

In regards to the Ancient Bone Dragon’s regarding fear in other dragons, yes we can say that Dragon;s that are ItP are immune to that rule.

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

I would have to agree with DoN's assessment there. 375 seems fine for it.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Excellent - what about others?

 

[Sephiroth Von Carstein]

I think 375 points is about right, I'm thinking about doing another playtest for this soon, any excuse to whip the Nagash model and his friends out... "errrr he's a Dreadlord riding a Dragon Shade..."

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Excellent I hope u let us know how it plays.

Anyone else in regards to the dragon shades points?

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I was just looking at it and i think the acient bone Dragon is over priced. I think its stat line is worth about the same as a star dragons, and i don't think the other abilities are worth 130 points over the star dragons. You gain Regen over a 3+ armour save and causing fear in other dragons. (the "shooting attacks" are worth about the same imo). Along with the undead special rule. (+ anything i've forgotten)

I would go for between 380 and 400. 320 + 25 (regen over 3+ armour) + 25 (fear in other dragons) that gives 370 + undead which i'm not sure on the points for. As i don't think it is as big an advantage as it is for standard troops.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

OK, we really need to put this one to the vote.

The first page has been updated with point values. Unless anyone posts any objections this will be put to the vote tomorrow.

 

[Dreadgrass]

I'm a bit concerned with us having a dragon on par with the Star Dragon, especially as our Lords are so much tankier than the Elves... However, as no one else seems to have similar concerns, I'll leave it to playtesting (Im not a big fan of big gribblies anyway, though the Dragon Shade conjures up some awesome imagery... Also, the dragon shades ability only has any real effect on multi wound targets, and I can see it getting messy against say, Ogre Kingdoms... what about a blanket affect for when your in combat against it (similar to the Zombie Dragon) but one that increases each turn? Not sure that makes sense, so for example:

Essence of Decay
(Insert fluff here)
At the beginning of each Legion combat phase, all enemy units in base to base contact with the Dragonshade suffer -1 strength. This accumulates each turn (so, a unit still in combat the next legion Combat phase is at -2, the 3rd Legion combat phase it'll be -3 and so on) A unit decreased to 0 strength may no longer make attacks. This means the Dragon can still be tarpitted (no killing when a characteristic reaches 0) but still has an interesting debilitating affect.

Sorry to throw a suggestion in this late in the piece, I can just see it getting a bit messy with multi wound units etc. (Seen a game played between Nurgle themed Warriors and Ogre Kingdoms, looked like a real headache lol)

Also, what are the restrictions on which characters can ride what mounts? My thoughts:

Zenith Lord
Ancient Bone Dragon
Abyssal Terror
Carrion
Dead Horse

Disciple of Nagash
Abyssal Terror
Carrion
Dead Horse

Revenant
Dragon Shade
(Gives him a unique and interesting option, being ethereal he probably can't ride anything else, unless he can get a spectral steed from the spectral cav?)

Zenith Prince
Carrion
Dead Horse
(Potentially Abyssal Terror, not sure if we wanted them on big critters though?)

Mortuary Priest
Carrion
Dead Horse

Nagashi Captain
Arabian Warhorse

Reaper
I'd say nothing, but possibly some kind of spectral steed?

 

[Danceman]

Keeping this short;

Undead star dragon which additional abilities. Too much and steal away HEs thing of having the biggest dragons around. Undead dragon = worse stats. So -1 to S and T but keep the fear aura. This will make it more sane(and with appropriate point reduction too of course!).
Shade Dragon. 100% safe from artillery bar the magic ones. Adds horribly to 'Rock-Paper-Scissor'-Hammer and is going to be the source of alot grief, I promise.
Both suffer abit from adding/wanting too much at once. I do not like this one at all bar from a fluffy perspective.

Rein these guys in abit as Dreadgrass pointed out, they will be ridden by exceptionally tough characters. Though my main concern is that the Legion of Nagash is getting too much stuff to play with in the list, to the point where it virtually have little in the ways of flaws. An army with barely no flaws(or where the flaws easily can be covered up) loses its character.

Carrion feels backwards as the stats are opposite to the TK counter-part where the S and T are switched around. So from a fluffy perspective it might be nice to add in T4.

Cheers, dmn.

 

[Dreadgrass]

Been thinking about this a lot, and re-read over some of the earlier concerns about ethereal characters riding ethereal dragons. I really love the imagery of a Revenant tearing around on a spectral mount, so I thought Id suggest a toned down version of the Dragonshade.

Dragon Shade - ???pts

Not content with summon the bodies of the ancient dragons, Nagash sought supremacy over their noble spirits as well. In time the most devious of his magics managed to corrupt their souls, chaining them to his command forever

M 6 / WS 6 / BS 0 / S 5 / T 4 / W 6 / I 5 / A 4 / Ld 6

Special Rules

Undead
Fly
Terror
Ethereal
Large Target


Cradle of Shadows (?)
Whilst its ethereal form does not allow any to ride this dangerous creature, its magical nature allows it to takes it master inside itself, delivering them safely to wherever they are commanded

This rule overrides the normal ethereal rule and allows corporeal characters to use the Dragon Shades as mount if the option is available to them.

Essence of Decay
The merest touch from this dragon leeches vitality from its victims. Those who are not slain outright by its claws find themselves ageing rapidly unto decay as the years rush forth to claim them and even their equipment.

At the beginning of each Legion combat phase, all enemy units in base to base contact with the Dragonshade suffer -1 strength on their profile. This accumulates each turn (so, a unit still in combat the next legion Combat phase is at -2, the 3rd Legion combat phase it'll be -3 and so on) A unit decreased to 0 strength may no longer make attacks (This is base strength, you do not count additional strength from Great weapons etc.).


Will of the Master
Dragons are noble creatures, and though dominated by another's will, an Inkling of their former personality shines through.

If the rider is killed, then the dragon starts taking crumbling tests, as though the general has died, as their spirit attempts to escape the shackles of necromancy and escape the battlefield.

So, in itself, the Dragon isn't a killing machine, its a handy debilitating delivery system that offers different options to the Bone Dragon. Yes, its ethereal, but any magic toting character (even the biting blade) or magic missile can now threaten it due to only having T4. I think this brings it a little more in-line with the current power level of units. yes, it would still be hard to kill in a magic light army, but, as has been stated, theres an awful lot of magic/ magical attack heavy armies about atm too... It just changes from being hunted by cannons (except dwarves) to being hunted by mages/ characters and lets not forget that it still crumbles like any undead so it can't really take on a ranked unit in the front like a lot of armies dragon characters can...