Morghasts.

[najo]

At first I had the impression that they would make varghiests or crypt horrors less appealing. But their point value is hefty, so they can't be taken in mass numbers.

They are going to hunt well, and hover gives them an always on 10" move which is interesting. So, they can leave the general without losing much movement. They take damage well, but have little in the way of saves. So, they can't anvil quite as well as crypt horrors. They hit hard and grind well.

I think small units of them will work well as flankers, hunters and in a third new role that is a stalling unit that dishes out damage, doesn't take a lot and suffers little crumble and can hold something in place without much magic support.

 

[najo]

I was rereading the Morghast rule today. Why does it not stack? It says units with this special rule (i.e. the Morghast unit) and all friendly units with the Undead special rule within 12" of them (i.e our other units) suffer one less Wound than they normally would due to the Unstable special rule (in addition to any other modfiers that apply).

So if I have two Morghasts units and a unit of zombies within 12" of each other, they all reduce crumble by 2. Right?

On a side note, I think Morghasts have an interesting role in our army as roadblocks. Between T5 W4, being easy to heal wounds on, having hover and a decent number of S5 or S6 attacks, plus the crumble 1 less, they are going to be able to hop over to redirect units, move separate from the general and then tie down enemy units without suffering much crumble. Then throw a invocation on them once in a while to boost them back up. They also benefit from Vampire Lore's Attribute too.

 

[Sanguinus]

I believe the reasoning is that because each of separate units of Morghasts have the same rule, it is only applied once and doesn't stack with itself. But it's not explicitly stated one way or the other.

I figured the BRB would, like 40K, state that special rules don't stack with themselves but it actually states that "unless otherwise noted, the effects of multiple special rules are cumulative." Now, that's actually vague, so I checked the FAQ and behold:
"Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have.
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to “[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However, unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of the first paragraph."

So, since the the rule doesn't expressly state that it stacks with itself, it doesn't per the BRB FAQ.

 

[Sception]

My own reading of the rule given in italics:

Units with this special rule (i.e. Morghast units) and all friendly units with the Undead special rule within 12" of them (i.e any of our other units within 12" of one or more Morghast units. Are you within 12" of one unit of Morghats? Then you're within 12" of "them" - them being 'units with this special rule'. Are you within 12" of two units of Morghasts? Then you're still within 12" of "them" - them being 'units with this special rule') suffer one less Wound than they normally would (ie, if you have any of the qualifying conditions, you suffer one less wound total, not one less per qualifying condition. Check all the units in the set affected by this rule, and all of those units gain the benefits once) due to the Unstable special rule (in addition to any other modifiers that apply) (other being 'modifiers other than this rule', other instances of this rule would be a 'same' modifier, not an 'other' modifier).

In any event, nowhere does the rule explicitly state that it stacks with itself, and as per Sanguinus's reference to the BRB faq, the rule thus defaults to not stacking with itself.

 

[Bullhax]

After seeing the box at my local hobby shop, I actually like the morghast harbingers, their poses seem better their head is very cool and the chest with skulls lile the dread abyssal mounts looks very cool.. I might actually pick some up eventually. Does anyone know what their base size is?

 

[Archamedius]

My own reading of the rule given in italics:

Units with this special rule (i.e. Morghast units) and all friendly units with the Undead special rule within 12" of them (i.e any of our other units within 12" of one or more Morghast units. Are you within 12" of one unit of Morghats? Then you're within 12" of "them" - them being 'units with this special rule'. Are you within 12" of two units of Morghasts? Then you're still within 12" of "them" - them being 'units with this special rule') suffer one less Wound than they normally would (ie, if you have any of the qualifying conditions, you suffer one less wound total, not one less per qualifying condition. Check all the units in the set affected by this rule, and all of those units gain the benefits once) due to the Unstable special rule (in addition to any other modifiers that apply) (other being 'modifiers other than this rule', other instances of this rule would be a 'same' modifier, not an 'other' modifier).

In any event, nowhere does the rule explicitly state that it stacks with itself, and as per Sanguinus's reference to the BRB faq, the rule thus defaults to not stacking with itself.

The only problem I have with your interpretation is the line "withing 12 inches of ONE OR MORE Morghast units" since that phrase (one or more) is something that is always called out in other rules where GW specifically did not wish for it to stack.

The BRB FAQ about special rules though seems clear enough to indicate it does not stack.

 

[John Rainbow]

The only problem I have with your interpretation is the line "withing 12 inches of ONE OR MORE Morghast units" since that phrase (one or more) is something that is always called out in other rules where GW specifically did not wish for it to stack.

The BRB FAQ about special rules though seems clear enough to indicate it does not stack.

Great spot.

 

[Sception]

I agree that the morghast ruling is frustratingly more vague than such rules typically are, but the 'them' in '12 inches of them' gramatically refers back to 'units with this special rule' which is already plural. You are within '12 inches of 'units with this special rule' whether you're within range of one or several.

 

[Archamedius]

I agree that the morghast ruling is frustratingly more vague than such rules typically are, but the 'them' in '12 inches of them' gramatically refers back to 'units with this special rule' which is already plural. You are within '12 inches of 'units with this special rule' whether you're within range of one or several.

Not to get in a grammatical debate with you, but "them" could just as easily refer to more than 1 model, and considering a unit is size 2+ it could just as easily be referring to a single unit since the unit consists of more than one model.

 

[HERO]

The only problem I have with your interpretation is the line "withing 12 inches of ONE OR MORE Morghast units" since that phrase (one or more) is something that is always called out in other rules where GW specifically did not wish for it to stack.

The BRB FAQ about special rules though seems clear enough to indicate it does not stack.

Yup. Aura of Dark Majesty reads the same thing

 

[crafty0ne]

On a side note, I think Morghasts have an interesting role in our army as roadblocks. Between T5 W4, being easy to heal wounds on, having hover and a decent number of S5 or S6 attacks, plus the crumble 1 less, they are going to be able to hop over to redirect units, move separate from the general and then tie down enemy units without suffering much crumble. Then throw a invocation on them once in a while to boost them back up. They also benefit from Vampire Lore's Attribute too.

I agree. Everyone is lamenting there high point cost, but it seems that they are doing so based solely on there stat lines without taking into account how they will actually perform on the battlefield. I think the minus to crumble they provide as well as there mobility is generally being under-estimated. in addition to the uses for them that you posit above, The minus to crumble, along with a bsb, makes it much easier for vampires or other expensive units to combo charge as it lessens the worry off the enemy just grinding up easy Rank and File models to generate combat res, and then having your lord or other expensive toy suffer crumble wounds from it.

Now having said that, I will admit that there is still a possibility that they are to expensive point wise. But the true test of that will come by there performance on the tabletop, and not from analyzing there stat lines.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

I believe the reasoning is that because each of separate units of Morghasts have the same rule, it is only applied once and doesn't stack with itself. But it's not explicitly stated one way or the other.

I figured the BRB would, like 40K, state that special rules don't stack with themselves but it actually states that "unless otherwise noted, the effects of multiple special rules are cumulative." Now, that's actually vague, so I checked the FAQ and behold:
"Special Rules, What Special Rules Does It Have.
Change “[...]the effects of multiple special rules[...]” to “[...]the effects of different special rules[...]”Add “However, unless otherwise stated, a model gains no additional benefit from having the same special rule multiple times.” to the end of the first paragraph."

So, since the the rule doesn't expressly state that it stacks with itself, it doesn't per the BRB FAQ.

Which is hilarious to me, since it means that witch elves only have 2 attacks a piece (frenzy grants the "extra attack" special rule, and so do additional hand weapons).

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Which is hilarious to me, since it means that witch elves only have 2 attacks a piece (frenzy grants the "extra attack" special rule, and so do additional hand weapons).

Good point. Interesting.

 

[najo]

Ironically, when you read the Morghast special rule and compare it to other Vampire/ Tomb King rules that don't stack, those other rules clearly say things like within X" of one or more models/units with this special rule. The way Morghasts are written, it sounds like they meant for them to stack and it wouldn't be broken if it did. Likewise, we all know that witch elves are meant to get an attack from Frenzy AND their additional hand weapons. Same thing with the whole lizardmen predatory attack and supporting attacks. GW should still be writing FAQs is the issue and I guaranty they stopped when they started working on 9th.

 

[Infernal Skull]

My own reading of the rule given in italics:

Units with this special rule (i.e. Morghast units) and all friendly units with the Undead special rule within 12" of them (i.e any of our other units within 12" of one or more Morghast units. Are you within 12" of one unit of Morghats? Then you're within 12" of "them" - them being 'units with this special rule'. Are you within 12" of two units of Morghasts? Then you're still within 12" of "them" - them being 'units with this special rule') suffer one less Wound than they normally would (ie, if you have any of the qualifying conditions, you suffer one less wound total, not one less per qualifying condition. Check all the units in the set affected by this rule, and all of those units gain the benefits once) due to the Unstable special rule (in addition to any other modifiers that apply) (other being 'modifiers other than this rule', other instances of this rule would be a 'same' modifier, not an 'other' modifier).

In any event, nowhere does the rule explicitly state that it stacks with itself, and as per Sanguinus's reference to the BRB faq, the rule thus defaults to not stacking with itself.

I really appreciate your understanding of English grammar, Malisteen.

And he's right. Units with this special rule, and all undead units within 12 inches of them. The HotAO rule is not "this unit or a unit or a model with this rule" (in which case the rule would only apply to the singular unit as having it, and therefore would stack with a separate unit's HotAO rule)... it's "units with this rule." Meaning that the HotAO rule applies to multiple units with it as being one element: The units with the rule.

That's why it doesn't need to specify "one or more." The rule already cites multiple units as being the source of the rule. So-- Units with the rule and friendly undead within 12" of them (measure from any or all of the units or models with the rule; they're all counted as the same thing: a source of the HotAO rule) suffer 1 less casualty.

 

[Sception]

Your reading is the same as mine, Skull. That said, I think we can all agree that it still should specify 'one or more', even if it may not necessarily have to. Especially since other similar rules do so, creating confusion from the lack of consistency.

 

[Infernal Skull]

Your reading is the same as mine, Skull. That said, I think we can all agree that it still should specify 'one or more', even if it may not necessarily have to. Especially since other similar rules do so, creating confusion from the lack of consistency.

Yeah, but then they'd have to add 2 more lines of text in the Morghast entries and that would shift the text boxes down and make the image at the bottom of the page smaller.

 

[najo]

Yeah, but then they'd have to add 2 more lines of text in the Morghast entries and that would shift the text boxes down and make the image at the bottom of the page smaller. :tongue:

It is a bad ass pic

 

[Emicrania]

i really don't like the models

 

[Banat]

They may seem a little jarring at first to the standard style. Have you read their fluff though? Reading that allowed me to appreciated why they have such different aesthetics. They're literally out of this world.

 

[Dracan]

Well I hope I can make them work as I just bought 2 boxes

Think you might need 6 in a unit to act as a proper anvil or hammer but then they just get to expensive to field.

 

[Emicrania]

6 in a unitx80 pts (if i understood correctly is 480 pts....... they gotta be VERY good for those pts.

@Banat No,i didnt,i was in vacation the last 10 days and im busy celebrating my 3rd decade this weekend,so i totally missed this whole End Time thing and i feel pretty lost,gotta be honest
i was actually thinking to write a post for ask for a short review for those (like me) are in this month in a financial struggle.
i dont know if my meta will buy the book so any indication is more than welcome!

 

[Dracan]

Am I correct in assuming that if they are within 12 inches of the general thay can choose to march and walk 12" instead of hovering 10"?

 

[najo]

Yes

 

[GreenGiant]

I ran a proxy unit of two Morghast Archai in my last game, and they really helped reduce crumble on a completely "hexed-out" unit of grave guard (were at Strength and Toughness 2), all while fighting off another unit.

When you compare 2 of them to a Varghluf it really looks pretty good, 8 S6 killing blow attacks and 8 wounds vs 5 hatred attacks at S5 and 4 regen wounds. Seems like they have a good spot in my lists.