Multi-wound cannon vs multi-wound skirmishers

[ATP485]

Scenario: A dwarf cannon hits and wounds a single vargheist. A 6 is rolled for the number of wounds which is reduced to 3 as the maximum number of wounds the cannon could do to that unit (pg.45 BRB). The vargheist had 1 wound, so he was removed and a second vargheist received 2 wounds.

This is how we played it following the rules, but it didn’t make much sense carrying wounds over on a unit of skirmishers from a cannon shot. I know there are lots of rule instances that don’t make much sense but has this been covered before in a FAQ/Errata? Is this a new "problem" with the introduction of vargheist or are there other nulti-wound skirmishers in the game?

 

[GhoulKing505]

As far as I'm aware the cannon ball only affects one model at a time. So you would have done 6 wounds to the vargheist with only 1 wound. The extra wounds would not carry over. If there was another varghiest behind this one then it would then get hit and you would roll separately for this one. Am I making any sense? Read the rules for cannons in the BRB and it might help.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Cannon wounds do not carry over

 

[Chaos_Born]

The wounds don't carry over, but do you have to remove whole models where possible? Or is that just my instant death in 40k reflex taking over?

 

[ATP485]

HITS INFLICTING MULTIPLE WOUNDS

"Some war machines, spells or magic weapons are so destructive that if a model suffers an unsaved wound from them, the victim doesn't lose only 1 Wound, but 2 Wounds, or a number of Wounds equal to the roll of a D3, D6, etc, as noted in the weapon's rules. In such cases, roll to hit and to wound as normal and then take any armour saves and ward saves that apply. Finally, for each such wound that is not saved, roll the appropriate dice to determine how many wounds are caused. A model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile. Should the model do so, it dies instantly and any excess wounds are wasted"

MULTI-WOUND MODELS AND MULTI-WOUND WEAPONS

"If a unit of creatures with more than 1 Wound on their profile is hit by a weapon that causes multiple wounds, determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile). Add up all wounds caused on the unit and then remove the appropriate number of models, noting any spare wounds on the unit."

These two paragraphs are causing the confusion. I get what you are saying Ghoul, and it's covered by the first paragraph. What does the second paragraph refer to?

 

[Sandrelo]

I believe you can only lose one model. However, the model you lose has to be at full wounds, if possible.

 

[Chaos_Born]

Is it just me or do the two sentences in the MULTI-WOUND MODELS AND MULTI-WOUND WEAPONS paragraph conflict?

 

[GhoulKing505]

I think I get it. Here's an example:

A unit of crypt horrors is attacked by a multi wound weapon from a character. Except the character decides to allocate his two attacks on two different crypt horrors. Both hit and wound. This particular magic weapon does 2 wounds rather than 1. So 1 crypt horror dies and another takes 1 wounds since the total number of wounds caused was 4.

Now if the character had attacked a single crypt horror instead and still scored both wounds on it then only 1 crypt horror would be removed because the maximum number of wounds that could be inflicted was 3.

Obviously this wouldn't work for cannons because a cannonball stops if it hits but doesn't slay a monstrous infantry model. So for a cannonball wounds do not carry over unless you shot a unit that wasn't monstrous or a monster. It's a lengthy answer but I wanted to make sure I covered everything. I hope this helps.

So for example a unit of cairn wraiths gets hit by a magic cannonball in the flank. It goes through all five of them but rolls a 1 when determining the amount of wounds for all of them. This would be a total of 5 wounds and so you would remove 2 models and another would have 1 wound on him.

This is how it should be played and it's how the rules say it should be played.

 

[Grish]

You played it correctly.

However.

The vargheist had 1 wound, so he was removed and a second vargheist received 2 wounds.

This is incorrect. The unit has wounds allocated to it; not a model. The model hit you have no idea how many wounds it has. So if it makes you feel better/makes more sense, assume this model has full health.

 

[Zhatan]

The way I read it is that you simply see how many models are hit and then roll for number of wounds but each model can only get as many wounds as they have W on their profile. So a cannonball hitting a unit of crypt horrors you first roll to wound on one and see how many wounds he gets, a max of 3. And then continue on to see if another model is hit.

 

[Grish]

@Zhatan: and how many can be hit? Read it up...

 

[Abbysal]

A cannonball goes in a straight line right? So unless its in the flank then only the one model right?

Edit: Yes I'm right, unless its in the flank which would cause the individual models to be seen as ranks then only one model is ever hit. So the cannon ball bounces and smacks your Vargheist square in the jaw causing 6 wounds killing him even if he had full wounds. It does not touch the others as it cannot unless it hit the flank so nothing would be carried over. One guy got hit, one guy died.

pg 113 BRB "A maximum of one model per rank struck can be hit."

 

[ATP485]

*Breaks out MS Paint*

Example 1

Say one crypt horror is hit by a cannon. A 6 is rolled for wounds (Total wounds = 3). One crypt horror is killed and excess wounds are lost.

Example 2

Say two crypt horrors are hit by a cannon. A 4 and a 1 are rolled for wounds (Total wounds = 5). One crypt horror dies and one crypt horror is on 1 wound.

Is this the gist of how these rules play out regarding non-flank cannon shots?

 

[Grish]

No, that is not correct.

No model can take more wounds than are on it's profile.

So if a 4 is scored for wounds, it is capped at 3, the maximum on it's profile. So it would do a total of 4 wounds, one would die and the unit would have an additional wound on it. Note Unit, and not Model. This is what the quote you were referring to means.

MULTI-WOUND MODELS AND MULTI-WOUND WEAPONS
"If a unit of creatures with more than 1 Wound on their profile is hit by a weapon that causes multiple wounds, determine how many wounds are caused on each model individually (remember that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile). Add up all wounds caused on the unit and then remove the appropriate number of models, noting any spare wounds on the unit."

So a cannon causes multiple wounds. Determine how many wounds are caused on each model (4, and 1). 4 is higher than the number of wounds on the model's profile (3). So it can only suffer 3 wounds. So add up all wounds (3, 1 = 4) and remove the appropriate number of models.

 

[Chaos_Born]

OHHH...Okay. Thanks for clarifying Grish, now that paragraph actually makes sense.

Good to know that GW still have the sanity to write paragraphs that don't contradict themselves, even if they can't do it with whole books

 

[ATP485]

Yeah, thanks Grish and everyone else. Now to relay this to my gaming group in a coherent way......

 

[Zhatan]

@Grish
Sorry I don't understand your comment but the way you explained it is how I meant it should be played too. I just meant that in some cases the cannonball will stop before it hits a second horror.

If a cannonball hits the front of a unit of 6 horrors we should check to see if the first horror dies from the shot before the hit on the horror in the second rank is resolved because if the first horror does not die then the cannonball stops there.

 

[Grish]

Ah my bad. The original post was to do with Vargheists, and everyone was talking about a unit of Vargheists until Ghoulking threw in a Crypt Horror example. Then you were talking about Horrors, when I assumed everyone was still talking about Vargheists (original posters question).

So yes, if you're talking about Crypt Horrors, that's correct. If your'e talking about a unit of Vargheists, a different amount gets hit.

 

[Zhatan]

Yes in the case of skirmighers there seems to be some discussion on if only one model can be hit as they don't have ranks. Has this been resolved in the faq?

If you go by RAW it would seem to me that cannons couldn't hit skirmishers at all as they have 0 ranks. This is surely not how the rules are intended tho.

 

[Grish]

Vargheists are monstrous infantry; no confusion. Unless you say Monsters don't get hit by cannons...?

 

[Mad 'At]

@Zhatan: You got a point, but I believe there was a FaQ stating that skirmisher only have 0 ranks when in combat. Otherwise they are treated just like any other unit an thus have ranks (even monsters have rank, no rank bonus but one rank never the less). Even bolt throwers can hit several skirmisher guys.

Edit: BRB FaQ, page 2:

Page 77 – Skirmishers, Light Troops
Change “[...]zero ranks[...]” to “[...]zero ranks in
combat[...]”.

 

[Hutobega]

Cannonball hits first model. Model has 3 wounds. If a 3 or higher is rolled take save if possible. If save is passed discard all wounds and cannonball stops. If save is failed model takes up to its maximum wounds and all extra.are discarded. If model takes less than it's maximum wounds cannonball stops. If model dies and cannonball goes through follow these steps for the next model hit. I hope this helps. I tried to make it sound strait forward.

 

[Grish]

Do you have a page for that rule that Monsters have a rank? I cannot find it...

 

[Mad 'At]

@Grish: Perhaps page 5 BRB. It say that a rank is an horizontal line within a unit, and since monsters are units too, and stand in a horizontal line (with themselves...) they should be treated a having one rank. It isn't written in clear text, I just interprets it

 

[Grish]

Thanks