Must have units.

[TobiasRathein]

Fear bomb on a unit of skeletons is a waste of points. You need at least S5 and WS3 to make use of it. The only unit that fits this is our GG and they're S6.
Ghouls are better than skeletons in every possible way. Thinking otherwise and discounting numbers and statistics is a fool's errand. One that my group will not partake in again.

 

[Bounce]

I think really ghouls, zombies and skeletons all have their merits and can all be used in a highly effective list.

I think it is more important how you play them and how they synergise with the rest of the army set up.
For instance are you planning on raising lots of core units or is your general moving around very fast and potentially leaving them behind.
Do you want to tarpit or kill stuff?
Are you going to use magical buffs? Buffing a unit of ghouls will be more effective than zombies but if you just want as many models as possible in the unit to hold up that white lion horde than zombies make more sense.
Stuff that i think is less of a must have is abyssal terror, bat swarm, corpse cart, black coach. Even these though can be made to work with the right list.

 

[TobiasRathein]

The problem with holding a White Lion horde is that very little in our army can actually hold them up, and by that I mean nothing in our army can. The other problem you quickly encounter is that a good High Elf player's White Lion horde will be immune to the effects of magic.

From what I've seen the only units we have that can take this horde head on is a large unit of Cypt Horrors supported by two Varghulfs, because they can survive the storm of pain and actually swing back at nearly full force.

You can also try to play the keep away game the entire time. This is far more prudent than trying to bog them down with zombies that often die outright.

 

[Seneschal]

Banner of the World Dragon in a front line unit? Kill the BSB and your problems are solved. Sure they swing first but just step up and attack the T3 W2 elf that has a 5+ or 4+ save at best and then drop some spells on them.

Keep away is a good way to do it though, as Tobias has suggested. High Elves are insanely expensive (30 WL with command cost 480 points before you start adding magical items).

 

[TobiasRathein]

The problem with killing him in combat is that you still have to fight the unit. The BSB has roughly the same stats as the unit, so that's not the issue. The issue is eating 30 re-rollable S6 attacks to the face before you can blink.

Given that, I'd rather play keep-away as I'm still going to horribly lose that combat.

 

[Seneschal]

Yes, you still have to face the unit but taking him down nets you close to 300 VP's and allows you to debuff as you please.
Go after them with the right unit(s) and you'll come out on top. People keep running hordes all the time when there are plenty of instances when you should go 5 wide instead.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Why would you ever ever ever fight a Lion Horde with your horde? 3 singlefiles ghiests and snipe the bsb

 

[Gatti]

^Better question, why would you fight it at full strength rather than weaken it first? Magic missiles (gaze of Nagash), screams, or hexwraith drive-bys do wonders. Drop them to under 20 and suddenly they can be handled. Drop them to under 10 and zombies can grind them down. Thats my typical strategy against lion hordes. Its when they are at full strength that they are the most dangerous.

 

[TobiasRathein]

We're discussing the White Lion horde that includes a bsb with this nifty rule where the unit is IMMUNE to magic.

I don't field vargheists anymore. Needed room for two terrorgheists, so the little guys are gone, unfortunately. Otherwise I'd agree completely with your suggestion, Johnny.

5 wide is also not a bad idea, Seneschal. The problem is that you're still fighting a White Lion horde. I try to not fight it as often as I can.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Sounds like you are not using all the tools are your disposal! If I know I am playing High Elves or really any Elves I run three vargs with a champ in a single file line. Smash up T3 characters good and proppa!

 

[Friendly Dead]

Skeletons for me. Ghouls are just a soft unit that bleeds VP like nothing else.

lolwut? Skeletons bleed less CR than Ghouls? I wish someone would warn me when I step into Bizarro World...

I honestly consider that a list whose Core is not composed of exclusively Ghouls, minimum Zombie units, and Dire Wolves is not operating at full potential (outside of a Fear-bomb, and that has its own set of issues).

You're a sloppy reader m8. I said VP not CR. Anyway T4 aint a lot better than 5+/6+ save, so even that is shaky. My point is that the standard ghoul horde cost 410 pts. and for me at least it tends to get murdered. Skeletons allows for more units and more rezzing. 410 pts. is just a lot for a unit that my opponents just laugh at.


Regarding the White Lion horde. I'm playing Blood Dragons and often take a Blender on Zombie Dragon with Nightshroud (favourite item ever). He tends to sort out those White Lions nicely....

 

[Matt217th]

To be honest we don't have good infantry at all. The core is crappiest of all in WH, GG suck big time ( low WS, no halberds, this sucks!). Actually we don't have anything that makes it worth for a new player to start VC. No shooting ( shouts are limited), no fighting power, our magick is, well...quite crappy compared to other lores, and i prefer death magick a lot more. Only nice things we've got are chaff.

I've just started a VC army... read my friends book and got my own the next day. The aility to raise zombies and skeletons is fantastic! So these guys can't be great as how unfair would that be? I'm seeing them more as a large unit to soak up the damage as a pimped out vampire or two does the killing.

9 Special choices (Vargheists first to buy myself), 6 Rare choices (They all look interesting)... can't wait to get stuck in.

As for lack of shooting, my main army is Empire, so i'm looking for a good change in tactics.

 

[rothgar13]

You got me on the CR v. VP point, but Ghouls still don't bleed anything out at all if you give them a certain amount of support. Stick the big shredder in there and they'll handle most things, and Van Hel's makes them even better. There are units they just plain lose to without the big man, but even then they stay upright well enough.

 

[Friendly Dead]

You got me on the CR v. VP point, but Ghouls still don't bleed anything out at all if you give them a certain amount of support. Stick the big shredder in there and they'll handle most things, and Van Hel's makes them even better. There are units they just plain lose to without the big man, but even then they stay upright well enough.

Then we agree. Problem here is that you rly ought to support the ghouls with a big fella, and then you suddenly have a hell of an expensive unit...

Ghouls and skellys are prolly about equal in the great scheme of things. Ghouls just never stop failing me. Maybe its their terrible sense of fashion...

 

[rothgar13]

Yeah, not much you can do about that without dipping deep into the ol' conversion pool. That said, I think some Empire Free Company with a creative paint job to stand in as cannibalistic humans would be pretty ace.

 

[El Syf]

Personally if they survive long enough Blood Knights on a flank can pretty much decimate your enemy's army so long as their units aren't 20+

 

[rothgar13]

Yeah, units of less than 20 are rather rare in today's Warhammer, so I'm not sure what you're getting at there.

 

[El Syf]

Really? In most games I play theres usually only one or two really big units, most are 20 or under.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Infantry? Only shooting units are under 20. Anything wanting to see combat (that is not elves or Chaos)will be over 25+ wounds in it. Ranks and Hordes are king.

 

[rothgar13]

Really? In most games I play theres usually only one or two really big units, most are 20 or under.

In the standard uncomped Warhammer game, that being 2500 points and one of the BRB scenarios, you'll rarely see units at 20 or under, at least not on the frontlines. As Johnny noted, Hordes and ranks are kings, so people either bring Hordes of fighting troops or deep ranks of Steadfast troops.

 

[Burnanation]

Terrorghiest is my must have.

It can melt big baddies with the greatest of ease while flying about.

 

[Litvak]

Im not sure there is a must have unit, is demanding on what race you will fight against, restriction, combos and so on.

There always something who can counter something else.

"Crypt horrors sucks, because they die easy to fire"
Who says your opponent has fire with him?
"I would do"
How do you know your opponents list's? He could take GG or BK instead of.
Lets be honest our whole army needs support from our characters to heal them up and that makes our army so exciting and awesome, a vampire with a Misma can do ahole lot of dmg on a unit because WS is our weakness, so to say.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

I dont really think Horrors die that hard to fire. More great weapons but I digeress

 

[Seneschal]

Litvak, I'm going to say that TG's and vargheists can do pretty well without character support, as can wraith units, ghouls (against the right enemies), varghulfs and I will add crypt horrors to that list. Aim the horrors at the right target and you won't have to worry about fire or great weapons for that matter (just watch out for certain spells).

 

[BloodbathMcGrath]

Must have unit? Easy- a model who knows lore of vampires... erv:

As far as anything else, doesn't it depend on what you like best? I don't think Vampires have a solve-all-problems unit per se, but we can afford devastating eggs in one basket in the forms of flying or cavalry, even hefty ethereal units at the right opposition. We also can grind out with zombies and tons of casters, but they basically need support, probably in the form of a blender or some special units.

To me, it just comes down to what kinda mood I'm in and what I feel like trying.