My thoughts on adding Tomb Kings

[Sception]

I just can't get behind necrotects in general. They're so fragile! I never trust them to live long enough for that hatred to come into effect.

A prince doesn't really make grave guard chosen, though. Extra weapon skill helps, but doesn't exactly make up for their limited number of attacks. I do like combining them with Vlad, but feel it costs more than it's probably worth.


As for the converted horsemen... they're still on the lousy old plastic skeleton horses (models that are nearly two decades old and look every day of it), and while the egyptian style and detailing of the sphynx rider parts are nice, they, like all the skeleton & tomb guard models in the TK line, are still based off the wonky proportions of the even older skeleton infantry, and, imo, just don't look right in an army that includes more properly proportioned vamp counts skellies & grave guard.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Necrotects with Ghouls!!

A Tomb Prince (with it's standard GW, DBG and Armor of Silvered steel) is a nice addition to either Grave or Tomb Guard. I like them on a Grave Guard better, because it makes our sub-par killing machines into Elite troops (at 11 pts mind you). A Tomb King make them Chosen Elites! Banner of the Barrows is simply overpowered with WS 6, but I always add a (Elector Count of Sylvania) Vlad von Carstein (Mortarch of Shadows) (Mr. Awesomeness) and the unit is pricey as hell, but since that's the strategy, I might as well build the entire army around it.

Everything else has been said above! (and I hadn't considered Necropolis Knights... those sound good after reading about them here, hehe)

The trouble with GG is that they're fragile and strike last. TG with halberds and razor standard don't hit as hard but they CAN be made ASF with a corpse cart or light magic.

Which, if you're running the GG brick, I'd actually recommend. The trouble with that brick is that it's so unwieldy and expensive that your opponent will have an easy time chaffing it out of the fight. That or hit it with chariots and flank charges so that it blows up in one round of combat.

HOWEVER, if you use the unit to protect a gunline it's savage. I used to do that with my TK. Light council, pair of caskets, pair of catapults. The T/GG brick becomes more of a deterrence measure than anything. Pair it with two big units of skeletons protecting its flanks and to build a box around your light council bunker and you're golden.

 

[Demian]

A Tomb Prince makes Grave Guard elite-type troops with WS 5. They are fragile because most armies hit them on 3s (and we all know that the To-Hit roll is the most important combat roll, being the one with the widest failure gap, despite any amount of Weapon Skill), now that they are hit on 4's they present much more challenge, and shrug off many more attacks in general, but I'll keep going

A Tomb King, however, makes them Elite Chosen (with WS 6, which no other troop has, save for a very few limited units, excluding characters, of course), and he doesn't even have to be fully equiped, just enough to have a decent Armor Save and anti-flamming attacks. Speaking of the To-Hit rolls, Grave Guard excell where Tomb Guard won't simply because of the Banner of the Barrows. That +1 to Hit is beyond any combat or weapon skill of any other unit in the game!!

Now, as for the offset of this unit, besides the fact that it's pricey because who wouldn't field 30-38 (so that Characters can fit in perfectly), is the fact that they have ASL and only Heavy Armor. They are T4, and so are above the "meh" Toughness. ASL is meaningless, given the fact that they are only I3, and most Elite troops (and by that I mean troops that are much more costly and will not perform as well in combat) were going to hit them before anyways, save for any Augment that is cast on them to protect them.

Aside from shooting at them, and Magic-ing them (the Tomb King should wear a MR3 amulet and as much AS as possible), they are not going to fall in combat easily, and will require them to be flanked and in non-horde formation (fewer attacks to compensate for the static combat resolution they're bleeding) and even though they have such weakness, it is much more manageable and less random and magic dependant!

Elector Count of Sylvania Vlad von Carstein, Mortarch of Shadows is the icing in the cake, making the Unit hit as hard as any Khorne WoC unit (with Str 6) and as durable as any Nurgle unit (getting hit on 5's is a huge defense). Just take care of the flanks with a Zombie horde (in non-horde formation...) and they will hit anything that they have in front with merciless fury. Use Lore of Undeath on Vlad to summon reinforcements when able, and only IoN to keep the Unit healed, but it should be self sufficient if you've done your job at hunting shooty stuff.

Mind you that hitting them with BS based shooting is also much more dificult because of Vlad's Mortarch power, so get the Stone Throwers first! that's why Casket of Souls is a must have with an Infantry-based strategy.

Returning to the subject, I also believed that TK units were only there for VC support, but I've grown to play with them a little more, and I'm starting to want to play more of them, specially in the Special slots (Rares are a given anyways). Sepulchral Stalkers come to mind when dealing with Dwarves, and maybe some Scorpions as well, also Skeletal scouts!. Will try to play more with a Sphinx instead of my beloved Black Coach and see where it goes.

EDIT: Apologies for disrespect my lord D:

(whenever I just call him Vlad, he refuses to hit, and rolls only 1's and 2's. When I speak his full title, he forgives me and rolls... better. Not all 6's, but better )

 

[Sception]

Don't get me wrong, I like grave star with the new goodies, but keep in mind that you're talking about 400ish points of unit, 200ish points of king, and 500ish points of mortarch, and no, I don't think their offensive or defensive abilities quite live up to that investment, much as they may be impressive in a vacuum.

 

[Demian]

I've played it at 2000pts and... it's a bit hard to pull off hehe.

No room for extra Special units, and all support must come from Core which is difficult D:

So far, I've played against Chaos Legions (even with the Ascendant God special rule and won) and against Dwarves, but lost to them because of a tactical error I shall not make again!

Both were the same list (so I wasted a dispel scroll against dwarves) but I got to know it much more and saw it's flaws and advantages.

Breath of Darkness is awesome for such a list (saddly, we didn't have End Times magic, or I'd use VDM all day long). For once, instead of redirecting, I was actually pushing through with the Unit, engaging any and everything I could get my claws on. All magic went to summoning, so I didn't even need magical support and so, that makes you shift from "I need to get a VDM off to beat that unit/monster/character" to "I'd better save some Undeath tokens to summon a Terrorgheist and end this, but whatever comes out for free is nice"

All the points sink was worth it, taking movement and magic support into account. I was less worried that I needed to cast critical spells, and more focused on power dice efficiency, summoning this and that, even if it was not critical, that made my opponent sweat and everything I could gain was a bonus and an extra burden for my opponent, which was nice for a change.

Aside from GG-star, we have no such other unit, and that qualifies it as a one-of-a-kind strategy that forces opponents to reconsider their "We will much through all their meaningless infantry while we kill their monsters" mentality, and shift into a "debuff! debuff it, shoot it or we lose!"

It was fun

 

[Sception]

Do you have the precise list posted somewhere? I've been planning on running something of that nature at some point, and am curious to see how others have made the combo fit.

 

[Demian]

hmmmmm nope, but I can post it in the Army list section. Just gimme a sec

EDIT: here it is

https://www.vampirecounts.net/threads/undead-legions-2000-the-grave-guard-horde.28271/

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

I3 strikes before ogres, saurus, and many monsters and mounts. It strikes simultaneous with most humans. More importantly, with ASF from light buffs or corpse carts it hits simultaneous with elves and better against most everything else.

More important though is how easy it is to mitigate that unit. Chaff, debuffs, bomb spells. Impact hits. Thunderstomps. Warmachines. Most opponents can just avoid it and earn enough points off the rest of your army to win. I've run both TG and GG in competitive play and I can fully attest to this from experience. The benefit of a GG star is point denial, not combat viability. It's a very fragile unit that must be protected, and to do that you need other threats.