NAGASH LIVES!!!

[Sanai]

Actually, Sigmar himself struggled to defeat nagash, and sigmar was protected from Nagash's magic by wearing Nagash's crown, otherwise he would have been killed by Nagash with just one spell. If Nagash was wearing his crown, hed be protected from pretty much all magic (as Nagash is possibly the most powerful wizard to walk the earth, and even he couldnt harm someone wearing the crown with magic. His magical ability is such that he was able to raise the ENTIRE nation of Nekhera from the dead (every generation of Nekherran ever to die raised up with one spell) and that spell has lasted even till the present. He is a huge monstrous creature that could probably be the match for a greater daemon stats wise.
So to recap, if he was accuratly depicted in game-
His Raise Dead spell would raise entire 2000 pts+ armies at a time
He would be innume to all hostile magic (due to his crown)
He would probably have 2+ regen, 1+ armour and 2+ ward, innume to psychology.
He makes Arkhan the black look like an apprentice, and arkhan is level 5.... so Nagash would probably be at least level 8...
Id say hed have something like 6 wounds, t8, ws7 at least....
He would probably have loremaster shadows, Loremaster death, Loremaster Vampires and Loremaster Nekherra, aswell as Irresistable force on all doubles and miscast only on double 6s, as well as having access to SoM spells even in normal battles.

 

[Vallasch]

True but that's all at the height of his power. Is there any indication that he still has the resources he used to?

 

[Sanai]

Actually the indication has been that he is now so powerful its difficult to pull him back into this world because he has practically achieved godhood. Also, the various factions working to bring him back have been gathering all of his various artifacts, which I assume includes the crown. The crown is Nagash's version of Sauron's ring- with it Nagash is practically unstoppabble and has godlike power.

 

[Uziel]

Story-wise nagashizzar is near depleeted of the warpstone resorces tatt he used for his greatest spells and rituals.
Each time nagash has come back from death, he has come back in a weekened state.
in nehekarha, he constructed the black pyramid to grant him power and to fokus his great rituals. In nagashizzar, he mined warpstone on a large scale for it.
I'm not saying that the return of nagash wouldn't be a bad thing for most races of the Old world, but nagash would have some huge challenges facing him, Much more so than in previous times.

As far as his crown goes, did it make sigmar "immune" to magic, or just nagash's magic on account of the spiritual connection there? Or did nagash perhaps not won't to risk accidentally destroying it? It's been a while since I read that book..

it would be strange of any vampires ( except the necrarchs) would participate in bringing nagash back, as there would be very little for them to gain, and potentially A LOT too loose, especially considering nagash's legendary vindictiveness and him cursingng all vampires for betraying him etc..
This idea is one I find Very hard to come to terms with...

I notised that the timeline in the new vi book still has nagash as returned to life in 1681, so he should already be up and abort as it were, and the fact that nothing has happened for nearly 900 years suggests to me that he is at the very least crippled somewhat in the power department...

 

[Vallasch]

On a bit of a tangent but still related to Nagash, i recently dug up Warhammer Quest and was reminded of the old expansion Catacombs of Terror which was discontinued before i could get it. Anyway the villain, The Dread King/Van Damneg, was supposed to be one of Nagash's original servants but i want to find more detail on the subject. He strikes me as a cool character to base a liche style master necromancer off of. Was he one of the Immortals like Arkhan? Is he the very same Dread King from the old computer game Dark Omen?

I found this on warseer but i figured being an undead forum, there may be some veteran gamers here that might be more of an authority on the subject.

Many centuries ago, the Dread King realised that Nagash, his lord, was destined to be assaulted by the Priest Kings because of his experiments with dark magic. Although he was loyal to Nagash, the Dread King realised that his master could not stand against the combined forces of all the other Priest Kings. He had served Nagash well, as one of his greatest lieutenants, and Nagash had rewarded him with powerof his own, and a great dragon which he rode into battle.

But the DK concocted a cunning plan. He faked his own death, and he did literally die, however he left clues as to how he could be brought back. He wrote a book the Grimoire Necris witch contained cryptic instructions for his resurrection as well as much of his necromantic knowledge. He signed the book Van Damneg, but his real name is lost in time.

Meanwhile, the Dread King had retreated to his prepared tomb, and sealed himself in. In a terrible ceremony of dark magic,he seperated his soul from his bosy and placed within a black diamond. His skeletal husk was entombed in his throne room. When the time was right, the gem could be brought back to him, and his body and soul would be reunited. Until that time, his mortal remains would be well and truly dead. His location within the tomb was a great secret, protected by powerful dark magic. His most trusted followers were entombed with him.

 

[Æon]

that exact same passage is on page 53 of the old book, you are mistaken disciple of Nagash

The entire text on Nagashizzar in the new army book is lifted directly from the 1994 Undead army book.

 

[Striker]

lol I read that exact part today too!

 

[Sanai]

Uziel, it pretty clearly stated that sigmar was being protect against nagashes spells by its ability to protect the wearer against magic.

edit: also, in all the time Nagash has been gone, more warpstone would have turned up. He would probably build a new base in mordheim, or just fly to Morrslieb which is 100% warpstone.

 

[Uziel]

If your're certain of that Sanai, I'll take your word for it. As I said, It has been a while since I read the book, and sometimes people tend to interpret things as they like, and post it as "facts".

Nothing like the deposits in cripple peak has turned up as far as we know, and the skaven tend to get their grubby paws on the vast majority of it in any case. As far as we know, necromancers aren't particularly good at flying either, and there would still be the issue of returning with it, and not having spent more on making such a spectacular journey, then he could concievably bring back. I imagine you were joking though. Hehe

 

[Vallasch]

The only large amount of warpstone that i'm aware of being mentioned, was the meteor that destroyed mordheim as you said. But that was in Vlad's time while Nagash couldn't, presumably, act freely. The recent preparations for Mannfred's ritual is now 522 years down the timeline. I would think all of it would be long since scavenged by now, except perhaps scraps?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

You know.....I keep on posting this over the forum. I need to create a wiki so I can link to it.

But to sum up Nagash (fluffwise):

First Iteration: At height of powers was described as having "godlike powers". Cast a spell so powerful it resurrected not only everything in Nehekhara, but the side effect caused the dead to stir across the whole world.

It took to kill him the first time round:

Warrior King Alcadizzar - some fluff suggests he was the greatest warrior produced by Nehekhara.
Fellblade - the deadliest weapon to have ever been created (it was actually forged to kill Nagash)
The combined magical power of the Council of Thirteen protecting Alcadizzar from Nagash's magic, even then the magical backlash killed three of them.
Oh yes...when this attack happened Nagash was only beaten because he was attacked in a comatosed state after being drained from resurrecting the TK. Yep, it took all the above to kill someone in basically in a coma, and even then they only just managed it.


Second Iteration: Nagash is described as coming back at greatly reduced power down to two main things. The journey back from death (putting his body back together a piece at a time), and that his soul his now split. Part of him is in his crown and claw, and without those he cannot get back to 100%.

In this form he fought Sigmar, and it was said they were equal in strength. Now just a pause a minute here - this is his second weakened form and he is still strong enough to match Sigmar. Just how strong was he beforehand?!

Sigmar did manage to overcome Nagash, though a wound was inflicted on Sigmar that he never fully recovered from.


Third Iteration: Said to be even weaker and is chilling out in Nagashizzar, using agents to try and regain his strength - no doubt looking for his Crown and Claw. In this weakest state his 4th edition rules made him the equal or better of any other caster in Warhammer, and his physical abilities were second only to a Bloodthirster.

So then:

Weakest state > Greater Daemon
Second state > Demi God
Full power > Run like f*ck.

The way I see it, he is one of the few who have the chance of gaining back his strength if he gets his crown and claw, after all there is plenty of warpstone elsewhere in the old world. If that happens I don't think anything short of the actual gods manifesting would stop him....and even then I wouldn't bet against him.


*sigh*


So much power and they made him look like a clown

 

[Vallasch]

*sigh*


So much power and they made him look like a clown

Although... i did see a paintjob that actually made him look... well not terrible. The upper half of his face is done like a mask as part of his crown. And i actually wouldn't feel ashamed to put it on the board. It's certainly the best salvage attempt i've seen on the old model.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/394866.page

 

[Aren]

Actually the indication has been that he is now so powerful its difficult to pull him back into this world because he has practically achieved godhood. Also, the various factions working to bring him back have been gathering all of his various artifacts, which I assume includes the crown. The crown is Nagash's version of Sauron's ring- with it Nagash is practically unstoppabble and has godlike power.

all nice and all.....but sauron is dead, and all it took was a couple of halfings.....oh the irony......they should get a couple of dwarves to steal Nagash's crown

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

*sigh*


So much power and they made him look like a clown

Although... i did see a paintjob that actually made him look... well not terrible. The upper half of his face is done like a mask as part of his crown. And i actually wouldn't feel ashamed to put it on the board. It's certainly the best salvage attempt i've seen on the old model.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/394866.page

Nope...still looks like a clown to me....in this case a clown who deep down has dreams of being a Dark Elf...

 

[Von Calyptra]

I found this in a forum, so I don't know if it's true, but it claims to be sculptor Gary Morley's take on that model:

the story on the Nagash, model... is this;

It was my first big Multi-part mini I had ever attempted. and it certainly
went through many versions in sculpting. (In those days concept drawing
were very sketchy and I had very little input.) But only one version ever made it to the
moulds. However, there are two head versions the original head was based
on the design that i was given, a more Zombie looking type. And that was the one
that my design manager and I (at the time) prefered. But at that time all miniatures
had to be approved not only by the design studio, but also by the sales management.

This is where it came un-stuck! They did'nt like it, and prefered to have a Skull,...?
Much to my dislike. Now because of release dates and schedules I had one day to put it 'right'. So preffering the original I went ahead and made the alternative. Now, I never thought for one moment thought that they would approve the (laughing clown) skull and would revert back to the original.
The Joke back-fired. And to my horror it was approved and they released it!

Throughout my time at GW I know i made some sculpts that I was not that happy with.
But, Nagash has been the one model that Haunted me all through my time there.
(AND IT STILL DOES!)
And vowed that I would re-make before I left. However, that was never to be.

I am working on my own version but will prolly not see the light of day until next year. Stands approx 70mm tall and will be cast in around 20 parts.

Blood Bowl was my favorite game at GW. Shame they never wanted to push it further. I would have love to have seen a Necromunder version.

This is, apparently, the original head:
http://www.collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/images/7/7d/Unreleased_-_Undead_Nagash.jpg

 

[Uziel]

Good summary of Nagash's power "level" DoN.
I would like to add though, that when people refer to Nagash's "spells", were not talking about normal spells that he typically cast at a moments notice here. His great ritual(s), were all very well planned, took enormous amounts of power (either warpstone or the black pyramid and a huge amount of sacrifices/souls). There is a difference, an those kinds of rituals are not something applicable on the battlefield, in any shape or form.

Even approaching the height of his power (before creating the crown etc), he still was not able to get the Skaven to give up on getting their paws on the warpstone beneath Nagasshizzar, and it took him a very long time to defeat the barbarians that later became his mortal soldiers etc. Just an example that he was never "invincible".

Even though he is certainly the closest character to ever reach anything resembling godhood in warhammer, he has still always had his limitations. Sometimes I get the impression that people think him capable of just about anything, but this is simply not the case. He is however a necromancer with no equal, there is no question about that.

 

[Sharkbelly]

The story about Kemmler and Mannfred in the new army book really makes me suspect that ol' nagash will come back for a summer campaign. Enough so that I will finally paint my Nagash model...

 

[morewar]

or they will make a new model:konrad:
Well if he comes back, the living will have 2 options
-serve as madness ridden worshippers of chaos
-serve as lifeless puppets of the great necromancer

 

[Von Calyptra]

or they will make a new model:konrad:
Well if he comes back, the living will have 2 options
-serve as madness ridden worshippers of chaos
-serve as lifeless puppets of the great necromancer

Why choose? They can do both.

 

[Uziel]

According to the official timeline in the VC book, Nagash has been back for some 900 years already. Is he back to his former "glory"? Defiantly not, and until he can get his hands back on his Crown (which is securely held in a secret vault beneath the cathedral of sigmar in altdorf if I'm not mistaking), he is not likely to become the threat that he once was.

Things have changed since he attempted to get his crown back from sigmar, the empire now have some experience in handling the undead, but probably more importantly, they are much more numerous, and have access to a whole new armoury, there are much more castles and forts around, the movement of troops is easier due to more roads etc, they can call on nations such as Kislev, Bretonnia, etc in case of real need, etc, etc.. With Nagash much reduced, and the vast army he had at the height of his time (some 0.5-1 million skellies if I don't remember incorrectly, that is NOT including those from his great summoning, which for the most part never reached nagashizzar), it is no wonder that he is being cautious, relying on his "agents" to do the work for him. After all, if there is one thing that he does have, it is time on his side...

 

[Sanai]

Even though he is certainly the closest character to ever reach anything resembling godhood in warhammer, he has still always had his limitations. Sometimes I get the impression that people think him capable of just about anything, but this is simply not the case. He is however a necromancer with no equal, there is no question about that.

I would say he is capable of doing anything, just give him enough time and manpower.

Also, hes not just a necromancer without equal. He is a magic user without equal, except perhaps the First Generation Slann, as those are pretty much a complete mystery so we have no idea how powerful they are.

Yes, he used the black pyramid and vast rituals to do things... but he still cast a spell that animated and bound to his will THE ENTIRE dead population of a vast nation. Thats not just one generation, but pretty much every person ever to die in Nekherra, and also awoke the dead across the entire world as a simple side effect. The side effects of that spell still linger to this day, and its main effect- awakening the tomb kings, has never stopped working. No other wizard in the history of the warhammer world is capable of what Nagash did. Teclis could not... what would the high magic equivalent be? Bring back to life the spirits of every high elf to have ever lived to serve Ulthuan, while also as a side effect bringing the spirits of every hero ever to die on the entire planet?

My point is- Give Nagash his Crown, his claw and his staff, and whatever vampires he can summon (most would find his summons very difficult to resist, or even would be forced to serve him) and he would probably take the empire pretty quickly. (Back in Sigmars time, he invaded the entire empire at once, literally covered the entire empire in zombies and skeletons, and wiped out a large portion of its population while besieging every city, and all while not actually having his crown which is the key to most of his power)

Once he has defeated the empire, he would have a huge amount of resources and people under his control- easily enough to build a second, even bigger black pyramid (or just march them all to the old one), take control of the combined deceased of Nekherra (as they are already raised, just needs to control them again) and the vanquished empire.... and have an army that is literally unbeatable because it is larger than the actual civilian populations of any of his remaining enemies.

(Remember, that Vlad/Konrad/Mannfred on their own selfs were able to have a fair chance at beating the empire- if Nagash is revived by mannfred, he will likely call alot of the worlds vampires together... imagine, Zacharius, the Black Prince, the Red Duke, Mannfred, Kemmler, Krell, Nefereta, Walach Harkon... and a largish number of younger vampires.... all united under one leader who is more powerful than anyone ever to live, with a huge inexhaustable army under them....)

Also, he wasnt just "equal" to Sigmar in a fight in his weakened state according to the sigmar books, if it weren't for sigmar wearing Nagash's crown, he would have killed Sigmar outright with a single spell before Sigmar got close enough to swing a hammer.

Nagash's only true weaknesses are the following:
His power is tied up in his crown/claw/staff
He is willing to do anything to get to his crown
He is arrogant

Also, there is still alot of warpstone in Mordheim, as far as I know there is still a huge chunk of warpstone still sitting in a huge crater in the middle of the city. Its so dangerous in Mordheim that a fair amount has still been unaccessed. (No full scale mining/digging operation has been set up in Mordheim, just small bands scavenging/fighting to grab small pieces, the larger fragments of the meteor are probably mostly still there buried beneath the rubble)

 

[Uziel]

I have some arguments as to your views here Sanai, but in the end it is pretty much up to each one of us to interpret and speculate at what Nagash could possibly do or not, or what his power level would be. There is no real "scale" to go by after all.

The doing "anything" part might easily become very far fetched and silly, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and think that you mean within a certain framework as far as how magic and physical laws work in warhammer etc.
You previously suggested he could just fly to Morrislieb, and collect the warpstone he needed, and if you were serious then which I didn't believe at the time, I see very little basis of any rational arguments here to be honest.

As to the "equal" of High magic, how about draining the chaos energy coming out from the Polar Gateways, flooding the entire world of warhammer, to save and stabilize it. This is no small feat, and it is still being done at present. You also have the Slan, slowly moving whole continents etc. Just saying, that Nagash is not the only one that has performed spectacular magics on a large scale. Note that they were a circle of mages, but on the other hand, they didn't need no black pyramid, thousand of sacrifices etc.. Not saying that Caledor was an equal wizard of Nagash as far as the ability to handle pure power goes, but I don't think Nagash was vastly better either. It is more a matter of vastly different fields of expertice. I imagine Nagash would have very hard time attempting to move something like a small boulder with his magics, as this is not his field, this he can't do "anything (everythig)".

There is a huge difference in nagash with the crown, and without it. Unfortunately, he only had access to his crown for a very limited time, so we don't really know that much of what he was capable of or not.

Yes, the vampire wars threatened the empire, but they were already divided in three before that particular war started, and the concept of Vampires and Undead not really a thing its people were familiar with and had faced in that magnitude before. This was also before Handguns etc became really common (can't remember them being featured in the Vampire Wars triology), so the Empire has made significant advances since then. The point is, that Nagash does not have his precious crown,so making the argument that he could take on the empire with the crown is a bit moot. He'd had to defeat the empire to get it in the first place. After the "Storm of Chaos", the empire also has stronger alliences with the High Elves, dwarfs (always their allies though), and the rest of the Old World. There is a reason why the new Mannfred/Kemmler story is in the book after all.

Trying to remember if Nagash's crown had any direct effect on Vampires here, but I can't recall at the moment. Without the crown though, only the most foolish Vampires would flock to him again, considering their past... I really can't see all those Vampires you mention finding a common cause with Nagash (Necrarchs is the exception though), and accepting him as their new master. With his ultimate goal, a world totally under his control, why would they? They'd be the only "uncertain/risky" elements left, and would be disposed off for security reasons.
Nagash is no fool, and he is certainly would not spare them for any sentimental reasons etc.

As far as the Warpstone in Mordheim goes, that was a long time back, and considering the Mordheim game etc (our best source on the city), we know that the Skaven has been there, and my guess is that the vast majority of Warpstone will be long gone ecause of them. I have not come across a source that states it is still there, but you might have though. Considering the skaven, it would be very strange if they "missed" it though..
Also, Modheim was in the Empire itself, and Nagash would not have easily been able to get to it and mine it, without having to defeat the empire first. The point is that if the warpstone is even there any more, he couldn't have used it until AFTER any war with the Empire.

 

[Sanai]

In the Nagash Trilogy Books there was alot of Nagash calling to vampires, and in the more recent fluff he has been influencing alot of the undead/vampires, even guiding mannfred to resurrect him. He is the entire reason vampires are vulnerable to holy symbols and cannot dwell in the sun, because he cursed them, using his power over them. I believe that he is more than capable of pulling many vampires to his cause through intimidation, pure force of will an of course the fact that many would happily volunteer to join his cause- he is the ultimate source of power and advancement for any vampire, it is risky of course- but vampires are those who have already given up their souls and mortality for power in some form or another, they risk important parts of themselves on a regular basis.

I do believe it would be possible to fly to the moon, it costs alot less energy to send someone to the moon than it does to shift a continent or reanimate an entire nations dead. To say you can move a continent or reanimate that many bodies but cant go to the moon flies in the face of physics.

Also, Vlads head was struck off by a cannon, and the empire got its first gunpowder weapons in the time of sigmar, and the first mass use of handguns in recorded warhammer fluff was by the Lahmians during the Nagash wars, and it mentioned that the Cathayans had handguns long before that.

The magical vortex that the high elves use is a bit of a joke in the scale of things, it only pulls in a fraction of the chaos energy. The majority of the chaos energy goes to the real vortex on the island of Albion.

 

[Sception]

Nagash, even revived, even fully powered, cannot fly to Morrislieb. All undead rely on the winds of magic flowing over the surface of the world to maintain their animating vitae, and intelligent undead, including Nagash, require it to maintain their spirits. The winds of magic provide a psychic medium of warp energy capable of sustaining a soul severed from the warp proper. They are Warhammer's spirit world. If Nagash were to fly out into space, his soul, powerful as it is, would dissipate and his body dissolve. If he was very lucky, both might fall back to the planet - dead but capable of regeneration. If he was not, his entire being might simply unravel.

He'd have a better chance of trying to use some great ritual to crash Morrislieb into the planet, but that would require some heavy duty magic more on the level of the first gen slann, and as masterful as Nagash was, even at the height of his power he wasn't realigning the orbits of celestial bodies. That seems not only too vast but especially too physical an effect for Nagash's magic. It's just not something within necromancy's purview, regardless of how powerful the spellcaster wielding it.

Nagash's spirit may be godlike, but his personal magical power on the physical world always relied on an outside force. The winds of magic. Dark magic gathered by the black pyramid. Warpstone mined from cripple peak. His greatest spell was only possible with the latter energy - vast quantities of warpstone. While he could take his staff back from Arkhan at any time and have access to the black pyramid, he has no significant access to Warpstone, and as such the effects he is capable of in the material world are greatly restricted, even before you remember that his spirit is split between his various artifacts and remains. Far from being able to repeat the great ritual of awakening, he wouldn't even be able to exert his control over the undead he created at that time.

So no, I don't think Nagash's present power is out of scale with the Warhammer game. However, he learned his lesson from Sigmar, and I wouldn't expect him to take direct action in his current state, either.



As for trying to reconcile the 'is he / isn't he' revived question, my personal head cannon is that his body is at Nagashizaar on his throne, reconstituted and moved around by his spirit like a puppet, but that he needs additional rituals to move his vast soul from the spirit world back into his body proper.

 

[Uziel]

Malisteen: You more or less described it perfectly.

It is not just about HOW powerful one are, but in which area one can apply all this power which limits the more powerful wizards etc of the warhammer world, even Nagash.
One quick example, is that no human wizard can supposedly master more than one of the eight winds of magic, because each requres a bit of a different mindset etc, and that doesn't mix well with the rest.

Senai:

That Vampires collectively should choose to side with Nagash (again, Necrarch being the exception here), and not under extreme duress mind you, seems to me to be quite foolish on their part. First off, Nagash is not one to forget earlier betrayals etc, so Vampires would most likely never really get to share in any true power again. They would ultimatly seal their own doom if they joined Nagash, and he somehow conquered the Old World. Nagash doesn't want anyone left that can threathen his eternal existence, so every living thing would have to go, and that means goodbye blood supply. If Nagash wasn't sure he could dominate all Vampires with a 100% success rate, they would ultimatly be destroyed as well. After all, if his goal was achieved, why should he keep them around? There is so much lore that indicates that this is overall a horrifyingly bad idea for vampires in general, that a vampire would have to be pretty insane to go along with it (enter the necrarchs).
Yes, I know that the latest book turns this upside down, with the Von Carsteins supposedly gathering nagash's artifacts etc, for the purpose of raising him again. My conclusion here is that Mannfred must have gone mad over the years, or has some other devious plan at the back of his mind, and the army book designers have some summer campaign based on this planned (or at least opened up for the option, since doing chaos again would be silly). I doubt't we'll see the Bloodlines collectively joining him though... Besides, if nagash has been "back" since 1681, I find it a bit odd that they haven't flocked to him before...
This stands out to me as a bit of an oddity (especially since the timeline already specifies that Nagash has risen again), along with the new Strigoi Ghoul King, that seems perfectly willing to team up with the Von Carsteins in the new list (with no fluff explanation to this change neither).

I never said the empire didn't have gunpowder, or that this didn't exist. I said that at the time of the Vampire Wars, the Handgun was one example of "new" technology not widely featured in the armies of the empire (this is based on the wars described at that time). Just one example of many, but on a large scale, probably the most important one. To have regiments with decent gunpowder weapons, as opposed to Bows/Crossbows, have proven to be a significant advantage in our history, and I don't see how it could otherwise in the Old World. Besides, this is only one of many big advantages that the Empire has gained since the Time of Sigmar. They alos have wizards in their armies now, and with there being 8 colleges and all, it stands to reason that we're talking about at least a couple of hundred wizards in total. That alone would be a pretty significant new threat to deal with for any army able to wipe out entire nations that was approaching the Empire's borders.. The point is that the balance of power is far from what it used to be for Nagash. He really needs his crown.

That said, I agree with Malisteen that at the power level that he presumably is at now, could very well work on the gaming table, at least for larger battles.