NAGASH LIVES!!!

[Sception]

You know, there's been a lot of talk of 'summer campaigns', but when was the last time they even did one of those? And, as I recall, the last one didn't have much detail to the organization of it, nor did it advance the lore in any meaningful way. For the most part, I believe that's just not something GW does anymore. I'm kind of sad over it, the 40k campaign 'Eye of Terror' was quite possibly the most awesome thing GW ever made happen, and both Albion and Storm of Chaos were pretty cool. Still, GW doesn't seem interested in doing them anymore, so I wouldn't get my hopes up about it.

Warhammer Forge is probably a better hope.

 

[Vallasch]

I generally agree with the way Malisteen defined the state of things but everyone raises good points. As for the vampires siding with Nagash, one must remember that the actions of the individual vampires don't represent the motives of them all. We only know for certain that Mannfred and Kemmler are trying to put him back together. This doesn't inherantly mean all von Carsteins want the same thing. It struck me as odd as well that there were Strigoi in Mannfred's army, since after the fall of Strigos they sought help from the von Carsteins but instead they betrayed and hunted the Strigoi like animals. However it's entirely possible that younger Strigoi wouldn't know or care about such events. And althoughthe timeline states Mannfred forged an alliance with Silver Pinnacle, it doesn't say that they know what he's trying to do. Neferata i wouldn't think to ever bend her knee to Nagash, as her dream kingdom was one that answered to nobody albeit with her at the top.

Uziel raised an interesting point about black powder weapons. In the Nagash trilogy the very early dragon staves really hurt him, as did the warpfire/warp lightning weapons of the skaven. Although that was before he crafted his armour and crown. After being hacked up with the fellblade would he still even has his armour though?

Also as for Teclis, his greatest feats are probably banishing N'Kari instantly when the Witch King bound him into slaying the everqueen. N'Kari is the massive and presumably most powerful, exalted Keeper of Secrets. He's the same one that led the entire chaos incursion that Aenarion and Caledor stopped. Teclis also banished Be'Lakor and his demonic legion in the wake of Archaon's horde. Though i hate the guy, one can't simply write off his powers.

Also... what about the Godslayer/Widowmaker/Spear/Sword of Khaine? It's meant to be the most horrific weapon in the world but nobody since Aenarion was willing to wield it, as it curses them and their entire line. I suspect Tyrion would be self-sacrificing enough to give it a go though?

 

[Uziel]

One of the interesting things in the new book, is that yes, Mannfred is working to get nagash to return, but they don't give us any insight into why? This is a big change as far as Mannfred goes from when he first appeared in the 4.ed Undead book, and it also goes against "all" reason that GW has provided on Vampires so far (again, necrarchs being the exception).
Here is a quote from the 4.ed Undead book regarding Mannfred and his thoughts on the return of Nagash:
"An ancient familiar had brought word from the south that Nagash stirred once more, reaching out from his ancient fortress to bend the dark to his will. That thought worried even Von Carstein, for who knew what that ancient, evil liche was capable of. Once he had come close to mastering the world. He might yet if he gathered his power to him. The thought occurred to the Vampire Count that his resurrection and the awakening of Nagash was connected but he thrust the idea aside. He was his own master, and he had his own plans, and even now they approached fulfillment"...

How did it go from that, to Mannfred becoming a Nagash "lackey", with little or no explanation? Thats a pretty significant change, and GW could have given us some insight as to why the big change I think. It could be that he was not prepared for the dangerous knowledge in the liber noctis though. That is a possiblility. For those whom have read the Vampire Counts triology, you might remember that he initially didn't succumb to the temptations of studying the book, as he feared it would instead become the master of him, and he had no intention of becoming anyone's slave..

Malisteen: It might be that they are waiting for more armies to be released for 8.ed first, but that is just speculation though. As far as the Storm of Chaos campaign went, it didn't change that much in the end, but there was quite a few novels released that revolved around it, so from a pure timeline basis, quite a lot happened in a relatively short period of history. I feel like 've been waiting for that Nagash summer campaign forever, and for a while I suspected that with the boost of undead corpses etc after the Storm of Chaos, Mannfred might suddenly launch his atack in the empire. Instead Mannfred just gathered corpses and returned home...

 

[Vallasch]

They have since said in the very earliest Vampire Counts army book though, that Nagash was working through Heinrich and Mannfred as his agents. As much as we all like nostalgia, i think we have to accept in some cases that when an older book is replaced by a new one, so is the fluff. So whatever Mannfred's story was before, that's pretty much null and void now.

But... having just had another read of the Border Princes story has revealed something i missed before. It contains its own internal contradiction in the very first paragraph. It states that when Mannfred returned he was hell bent on taking the imperial throne and ruling the Old World himself. Perhaps he has a different ritual in mind than Nagash's followers expect at the final hour?

 

[Uziel]

They have since said in the very earliest Vampire Counts army book though, that Nagash was working through Heinrich and Mannfred as his agents. As much as we all like nostalgia, i think we have to accept in some cases that when an older book is replaced by a new one, so is the fluff. So whatever Mannfred's story was before, that's pretty much null and void now.

But... having just had another read of the Border Princes story has revealed something i missed before. It contains its own internal contradiction in the very first paragraph. It states that when Mannfred returned he was hell bent on taking the imperial throne and ruling the Old World himself. Perhaps he has a different ritual in mind than Nagash's followers expect at the final hour?

True, they do change the fluff, and normally it is not a big problem, except when we're left with contractions that don't make sense etc, and we don't get an kind of an explanation.
I don't remember out of hand what the first true VC book sid about Mannfred as far as Nagash goes, but I remember that Kemmler didn't willingly work for nagash, but that Nagash has subtly guided him to Krell's Toomb etc. Technically, due to his sword etc, Kemmler "serves" chaos now in any case..

Mannfred was by far the most cunning of vampire counts, so I prefer to think he has a trick up his sleeve, as he is defiantly not one to seek becoming someone else's sevant according to his fluff already written about him.