Legion of Nagash Nagash

[Master Vampire]

The first alternative army list we're going to develop, is that of the Legions of Nagash. And where is Nagash' Legion without the rules for the great creator of doom?

Please post up the ideas you have for Nagash; stats, equipment, special rules, etc etc.

 

[Avaris]

For reference I did a quick search for existing (player made) versions of his rules.
Link 1
...and thats it from page 1 of google...

 

[TheAdmiral]

I'd like to see Nagash in various forms, such as the Necromancer, the Warrior and the Monster. Here's a draft of Nagash the Necromancer

Nagash

M4 WS3 BS3 S2 T2 W3 I3 A1 Ld10

Equipment: Staff of the Utterdark, Books of Nagash, Black Blade of Death, Cloak of Mist and Shadows

Magic: Nagash is a Lvl 4 Wizard, he knows all six spells from the lore of Necromancy

Options: -May have any of the Vampire Lord mounts for the given points value.

Special rules: First of the Necromancers, hate Vampires

First of the Necromancers: Nagash was the first to unravel the hidden secrets of Necromancy and only he knows the deepest secrets. He counts as having the following spell in addition to his arsenal of the six regular spells from the Necromancy List:

Invocation of Nagash 15+

This spell works exactly as the Invocation of Nehek, with the following exceptions: 4D6 Skeletons may be raised, 4D6+4 Zombies, 2D6 Grave Guard, 3D6 Dire Wolves, D6 Black Knights or 4 Wounds may be healed from a multiwound model that has the Undead special rule.

Magic Items:

Cloak of Mists and Shadows: page 51 of the Vampire Counts armybook.

Staff of the Utterdark: This staff has the combined effects of a Black Periapt, Warrior Familiar, Power Familiar, Wristbands of Black Gold and Skull Staff.

Black Blade of Death: This counts as a normal hand weapon, in addition. Any model hit with the blade is automatically slain with no saves of any kind allowed.

Books of Nagash: As long as he has enough power dice, Nagash can cast any one of the spells he knows, even one that he has already cast in the same magic phase. In addition, it allows him to regain all his lost wounds in any of his own Magic phases, powerdice or casting roll is required and it cannot be dispelled by any means.

hope you like it.

 

[darknesseternal]

Not bad The Admiral...

Though I think that the combo of the Black Blade of Death/Books of Nagash is way overpowered...

I mean, Nagash just needs to hit and any opposing Uber monster character is dead? No saves at all??! And this is the Necromancer form of Nagash, and not the Warrior or Monster (or both combined)??! And it counts as a normal hand weapon, after it can do all that, because why exactly??

Looking at the stat line, I'd be ok with all that.. I mean, the stats show that he is not exactly a fine warrior, but who will need alot of luck in combat (still, it will only take one hit, without having to wound, to kill said Uber combat monster who goes up against him).

But then you throw in the books of Nagash, and you realise that all he needs to do is to successfully cast a 3+ invoke, and any damage done to him can be restored. Unless I've read that wrong. Does he have to roll the equivilent casting value that Invoke has for restoring wounds (3+ 1 wound, 7+ 2 wounds, 11+ 3 wounds), or does he using the book to cast any spell he knows at the required casting value mean he also restores all lost wounds?? You did say it allows him to regain all lost wounds after all. If the latter is the case, severely overpowered, when you consider you have said that it cannot be dispelled by any means.

As well, you haven't explained the hate Vampires special rule.

 

[Avaris]

This is my vision of how Nagash could work (the spirit/body version I described in the other thread). I am trying to base it on existing abilities to get an idea of points cost, but it will likely need tweaking to get right.

Nagash
Nagash is a Lord choice (Fairly standard this, could become a lord + hero though) and must be the army general (Obviously)

The Nagash special character consists of two models; the Spirit and the Body, that deploy together but can operate independently during the game.

The Body

The withered form of the Master of Necromancers sits upon his throne, borne aloft by his most loyal servants; the Nagashi. They serve him in death as they did in life, and will forever serve their lord. (I reasoned that they would probably be dead by now, and that there would have been no oppertunity to train new ones, but we could say the nagashi passed skills on from father to son, waiting for the return of their lord.)
The unit consists of 1 Body of Nagash model and 6 Nagashi. Additional Nagashi can be purchased at a cost of 18 pts per model (12 for basic GG stats and abilities, +1 for shields, + 3 for Gromril armour (may need to be higher), +2 for ld 9)

.                    M  Ws  Bs  S  T  W  I  A  Ld
The Body of Nagash   4  3   3   4  4  6  3  4  9
Nagashi              4  3   3   4  4  1  3  1  9

(The stats are based on the Bretonnian Grail Relique and the VC Grave Guard, and the wounds/attacks characteristics represent the wounds/attacks of the Nagashi, not Nagash himself)
Equipment: The Nagashi carry Hand weapons, shields and wear Gromril armour
Special Rules: Killing Blow, undead. The Body of Nagash has unit strength 6, and is placed in the centre of the front rank like a standard bearer or musician. It counts as both a standard (though it can never be dropped or captured) and a musician. So long as rank and file Nagashi survive it can suffer no wounds; another Nagashi steps up in place of the fallen warrior. It has a 3+ armour save, increased to 2+ in close combat (Gromril armour, shields, HW). The Body also counts as the army general for the purposes of crumbling. (I debated whether to make it the army battle standard as well, but left that out for now)

Estimated basic points cost for Body of Nagash: 12x18 (equivilant to 12 Nagashi) + 18 (GG Standard/musician) + x (unknown cost of relique and general like abilities) = 234 + x
For the purposes of these stats I will take x as 16, giving a total cost of 240 pts for the Body

The Spirit
Something like this model wise
Nagash's many deaths have resulted in his spirit being only loosely bound to his mortal shell, and while the Nagashi guard his husk his conciousness is free to roam the field of battle, revelling in the slaughter.
The unit consists of 1 Spirit of Nagash model. It is an independent character, and may not join any unit except for the Nagashi (in which instance the model is removed from play, see below).

.                          M  Ws  Bs  S  T  W  I  A  Ld
The Spirit of Nagash       4  3   3   3  4  3  3  1  9

(Stats are based on the Master Necromancer stats, with an added point of ld to bring it in line with the Body)
Equipment: hand Weapon
Magic: Nagash is a lvl 4 wizard, and knows all the necromancy spells apart from hand of dust (the spirit is not intended to be a combat character, so I decided to limit HoD. Either it stays like this, he knows all the spells, or he has to roll 5)
Special Rules:
Master of Necromancy. Nagash was the first necromancer, and even following the lose of his books has knowledge no other man does. Master of Necromancy gives Nagash one extra spell (above the normal 4) and allows him to cast Invocation of Nehek at a 15+ casting value, raising 4d6 skeletons, 4d6+4 zombies or restoring 4 wounds to an undead model (Basically the book of Nagash from the Zacharias character)
Spirit form. In his spirit form, Nagash is etheral, can fly, has a 4+ ward save and causes terror (The spirit form is deliberately hard to destroy, so as to encourage a mobile use of it)
Being of Power. Nagash is saturated with magic, and generates an extra power dice and dispel dice above the norm (Basically a power familier)

Estimated basic points cost for the Spirit of Nagash: 220 (lvl 4 master Necromancer) + 45 (etheral, based on cloak of mist and shadows) + 50 (power familiar) + 45 (ward save, based on Obsidian amulet) + 50 (causes terror, based on wailing helm (note: wailing helm also features a 6+ save, so is overestimate)) + 30 (flying, based on lizardman cloak of feathers) + x (unknown cost of additional Invocation spell and fixed spell list) = 440 + x
For the purposes of these stats I will take x as 10, giving a points cost of 450 for the spirit

The Body and the Spirit combined
When his mortal shell is thretened, the Spirit of Nagash returns to his body, using his magic to protect himself
At the start of any of his magic phases, the Spirit of Nagash can return to his body. He cannot cast spells on the turn he does so, and the Spirit model is removed from play. So long as the spirit remains in the body, the Nagashi gain a 5+ ward save and cause terror. On subsequent turns nagash can cast spells again, but is restricted to the line of sight provided from the unit. He may leave the body during any of his movement phases.
IMPORTANT: Should the body of Nagash ever be destroyed, the Spirit is removed from play.
These rules are intended to encourage people to use the spirit as mobile magical support, and to only return to the body in the direst need. The body provides the abilities of a general, while the spirit provides the magic of Nagsh

Total estimated points cost: 450 (spirit) + 240 (body) + x (combined abilities, mostly already included in Spirit abilities) = 690 + x
For the purposes of these stats, I'll take x as 10, giving a total value of 700 points. This may seem high, but it features a powerful combat unit as well as a powerful and all but invulnerable necromancer, and is only 10 pts more than Mannfred.

Comments? Critisisms? These are really just ideas off the top of my head, and will likely need adjusting.

 

[DarkHand6]

this is a good idea - nicely done

the grail relique is 118 points with 6 pilgrims (worth about 7 pts each) so i would say the body x is 76pts. I wouldn pay anything for the general ability as it isnt actually better than the normal one.
This would work out quite nicely making the body 310pts (could easily be 300/320 if people think that good)

The fixed spell list for the spirit would be 30pts (HE seer honour), the extra level might be worth about 20pts. With its high casting value i wouldnt say its reaslly worth any more - this would mean a 490 pts spirit.

Totalling quite nicely an 800pts Nagash. Again people might think this is too hard - but he's cheaper and better than Zacharius so go figure.
Personally i like it - keep it up Avaris

 

[TheAdmiral]

Hmm, I always though of Nagash as an immensely powerful Necromancer, which, in my opinion should cost more than 700pts (900-1000pts might be more accurate), a bit like Malekith, or Kroak.

 

[Avaris]

this is a good idea - nicely done

the grail relique is 118 points with 6 pilgrims (worth about 7 pts each) so i would say the body x is 76pts. I wouldn pay anything for the general ability as it isnt actually better than the normal one.
This would work out quite nicely making the body 310pts (could easily be 300/320 if people think that good)

Each pilgrim is worth 9 pts (based on the amount it costs to buy extra models) so in that case the x is 64 pts, meaning a relique by itself is worth 7 pilgrims. Remember this also includes the Stubbon/hatred abilities, but 310 pts seems a fairly reasonable price for him

The fixed spell list for the spirit would be 30pts (HE seer honour), the extra level might be worth about 20pts. With its high casting value i wouldnt say its reaslly worth any more - this would mean a 490 pts spirit.

Makes sense.

Totalling quite nicely an 800pts Nagash. Again people might think this is too hard - but he's cheaper and better than Zacharius so go figure.
Personally i like it - keep it up Avaris

Thanks

and @ TheAdmiral: I think assigning a target cost is the wrong way to make a character. Nagash is powerful, but this version features the abilities I think he should have, and ended up coming to 800 pts (with Darkhand's values). Anything more would be added just for the sake of it, which makes no sense.

 

[TheAdmiral]

I thought of another version of Nagash, please have a look

Nagash

M6 WS4 BS3 S3 T2 W5 I6 A2 Ld10

Equipment: Hand Weapon
Magic: Nagash is a Lvl4 Wizard, he will always use Necromancy

Special Rules: Possession, Ethereal, Master Necromancer, Cause Terror, Glide (Fly, 15").

Possesion:
As you may have noticed, Nagash in itself is extremely weak. This forces him to work through vassals, possessing and using their body until it is completely wrecked. Then he goes off to possess another body.

During the movement phase, Nagash may opt to "join" a character or unit champion (friendly or enemy). The Nagash model is placed next to the character/unit champion. If Nagash has joined a model, Nagash cannot be targetted or seen in any way, the model counts as if it wasn't there. Nagash may start the game in a friendly character or unit champion if he chooses to do so.

Any character possessed by Nagash keeps his profile, but has the Magic Levels and Lore of Nagash. note that weither the posseseed is friendly or enemy, the model is always under the VC player's control.

Any model possessed must pass a Leadership test on a 3D6 every Magic Phase or lose a Wound, due to the unholy magics flowing through his body. If the model passes the Leadership test, however, Nagash himself loses a Wound. Should the possessed model be slain, Nagash may move out of the model and look for a model to possess within 6". If no suitable model is found, Nagash is placed within 6" of his former body by the Vampire Counts player.

Master Necromancer:

Nagash always knows all 6 spells from the Lore of Necromancy. He may opt to cast the Invocation of Nehek at 15+, allowing him to raise 4D6 Skeletons, 4D6+4 Zombies or heal 4 Wounds on any multiwound model (but not himself). Note that Nagash may not cast spells when he doesn't possess a model.

EDIT: Typo fixed

 

[draco von carstien]

one question, you said "lore of nagash" whats that?

 

[DarkHand6]

he means necromancy - remember Nagash created that on?

honestly probably a typo - he'll use Necromancy as stated elsewhere

 

[Arion]

there was a nice nagash on the old carpe noctem il try to find it.........

edit:i cant find

 

[Master Vampire]

there was a nice nagash on the old carpe noctem il try to find it.........

edit:i cant find

I think you mean dreadlordvharash's Nagash

It was indeed a pretty balanced model

 

[Arion]

thats it !:grin: maybe that could be our nagash with a few tweaks oh and the one big rule you do not have to include nagash to play (i find that rule silly (its not in the stats for nagash but heinrich kemmler has it luthor harkon has it all this special optional lists have a must be used character)

 

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

I realize that I'm late to this party and a new guy on the block.

Nagash, in his current weakened form is still a Teclis/Kroak level character. I'd like to see a special spell like Kroak's Ruination of Cities.

Lesser Summoning 14+
Does nd6 Sx hits on an enemy unit. If it kills every model in the unit of US1 models, the unit is replaced with an equivalent number of zombies.

Suggest n = 4, x = 4.

 

[Avaris]

Interesting idea, though it may be difficult to put a price on and balance. We are currently attempting to agree on the exact Nagash rules in this thread, so feel free to join in there if you want.

 

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

The Ruination of Cities is a very powerful spell. In a recent battle, Lord Kroak got the first turn and cast it on my army using 7 dice and got IF. I was playing my Wood Elves and he got a 20" diameter circle, destroying 75% of my army.

To limit the spell, the number and strength of attacks needs to be able to kill about 5 -7 typical T3 lightly armoured models on average, with the possibility of getting up to at least 10 (2d6?). Against heavily armoured models, you probably won't do much, and it is worthless against US2.

I think that the concept is VERY fluffy for Nagash.

I like the spirit/body idea and the could be simplified into something like Teclis where the essence must be either in the body or 'free'. You choose at the very start of Nagash's turn and he has to stay that way until the beginning of his next turn, possibly having to make a leadership test to change state. The spirit is powerful flying ethereal mage, the body a slow but powerful defensive fighter. Like Kroak, if either part of Nagash is banished, the best you can do is draw.

 

[Sickboy]

I see that though i may be gone, i am not forgotten, the picture there is of the Dread King model i converted. Thanks for the recognition there.

 

[Avaris]

Heh, nice model Sickboy; didn't realise it was yours (forgotten where I found it...).

To everyone else, I'm going to try to post some new stuff for the legion in a few days, so watch this space. I want to get this show on the road again...