Najohammer Wishlisting

[najo]

Ok, so I stated before I didn't want to build by committee. What I mean by that is I don't want to many cooks in the kitchen while everything is being cooked up. I will gladly discuss menu items though and once the first draft is served, I will be open to all of your feedback.

So what I like from all of you is give me your wish lists. What would an ideal 9th edition change or bring back from previous editions?

 

[logan054]

I think at it's core 6th was the most enjoyable edition for myself. 8th had some good ideas to fix some of the issues with warhammer. The problem is with GW, if it has a problem, it takes a sledge hammer to the issue.

so 6th with 8th ed magic generation, random movement (but having a more direct link to the models movement value). Warmachines that use cannons, steadfast, supporting attacks (half models attacks round up) stepup. Hordes being a rule that is given to weaker units to buff them. MC rules from 8th (applied to all mounts). Bigger pool of common items than in 6th but less than 8th. similar amount of magic items that are race specified. Perhaps limit 4+ wardsaves to infantry models, no rerollable armour save items.

Well something like that anyway

 

[najo]

Great input and much of which I agree with. Keep the ideas coming everyone. It's safe, I won't bite.

 

[Sception]

With the understanding that I'm opposed to the entire prospect well established, if you do go forward with this, things I'd like to see include....


I'd like to see several of the rules that encourage huge units in 8th edition mitigated or just rolled back entirely. 15 to 25 should be respectable unit sizes, imo, there shouldn't be this painful upward pressure pushing people to run unwieldy, overpriced, and boring units of 40+, which you get from having steadfast and hordes in the game.

Also, go back to loose formation skirmishers that rank up only when locked in combat, or else just have the unit rank up in base contact normally all the time and have skirmishing just be special rules rather than a physical formation. The half-arsed, rectangular formation only spread an inch apart so it's crazy awkward to move them around and they still have to squish together in close combat so you can't even just put them on a spread out unit tray business is terrible. Terrible to play with. No good. I know skirmishers dancing around, always an inch from a unit but never in its charge arc were annoying, and that's a problem for fliers and fast cav too, but just fix that problem directly, by letting units WALK into close combat. IF someone is so close to you that they can give up half their move to turn (or just quick reform or whatever in 8th) and just walk their normal move into close combat, then they shouldn't have to charge you to do so. I mean, obviously they'd get no charge bonuses, but still.

Stopping in the middle of the game every time you touch terrain to roll what sort of wacky thing it does and then having to remember that for the rest of the game is terrible. Also, terrain that does every ridiculous, awkward, gamey thing under the sun EXCEPT the ONE THING that terrain is intuitively supposed to do - slow down units that move through it - is terrible. Let a forest just BE a forest. Maybe difficult terrain slowed units down too much before, maybe 'half movement' OR 'no marching' is appropriate, but not both? I don't know. But come on, here, seriously. 8th ed terrain is a mess, scrap it completely and go back to 6th or 7th, then improve from there.

Magic dice pool that doesn't scale with game size is a problem. Magic dice pool that scales with how many magic levels you field making the magic phase heavily manipulable and thus super abusable, and punishes any players who dare not go magic heavy is also a problem. Magic and dispel dice pool should scale with the size of game directly, not 'not at all' and not indirectly by what players field. How you fluff it doesn't matter (I like bigger game -> more soldiers -> more lives in the balance -> more magical power drawn on to the battle by the winds of fate), but that's what it needs to do somehow to actually work. Also, some super spells are just too super. Maybe we could just, you know, 'not', with the purple sun and pit of shades and mind razor and all.

Get rid of true line of sight. It's a game play abomination. No minis game should ever use true line of sight. Ever.

Consider complete reworkings of major parts of the rules. I mean, if you're coming up with your own version, why not, right? Try things GW never did. Question everything. Or rather, question things I tell you to question. Or rather, question specifically the 'I do everything while you wait around, then you do everything while I wait around' turn order. Mix things up. Go lord of the rings on this, maybe, with one player moving, then the other, then first player shoots and then the other, and so on. Maybe have combined phases where you take turns unit by unit. Maybe have a singular magic phase where instead of one wizard casting and another dispelling, two wizards are nominated to attempt to wrest control of the winds of magic and whichever succeeds gets to cast a spell, repeating the process until the magic is used up for the round or all the wizards are exhausted?

 

[logan054]

I really like the sound of alternating play with units, this would require magic to have a complete rework, something like 1D6 per 1000pts divided equally between the players, the odd dice goes to the person you has initiative, these are used to both cast and dispel. You could have command abilities that characters could buy (for non-wizard characters). A generic table and a race specific table.

 

[Dragonet]

Command abilities sound brilliant Logan! As far as alternating movement goes however, although it's a revolutionary mechanic that's found in most of our games now, it's just not true to the original. It's like having a classic project car then putting a modern body kit and engine on it because they're better; I think at that rate we nay as well move on to something else.

 

[The Sun King]

Can you make it just like Age of Sigmar?

 

[Atrophus]

I'd personally like irresistible force removed from the magic rules and make the miscast table more dangerous, to units around the wizard as well as the wizard themselves.

I like a lot of @Malisteen ideas

 

[GDD]

Ethereal being a 2+ward against normal attacks, and a 5+ ward against magic attacks. So normal units aren't completely helpless against ethereals, "but only a true strike may wound one". And so ethereals don't become trash when your list happens to fight someone with lots of magical ranged stuff.

@logan054 Command abilities sound really cool, but you give no clue to what they could be :tongue: In warthrone they are formations that units can adapt mid battle, but I don't know what else they would be. "Encourage charge" for more CR when you successfully charge? "Shield wall" for a 5+ parry save the turn you are charged? Stuff like that?

@Malisteen Why the hate on LoS? I am genuinely curious.

 

[Dragonet]

I like that take on Ethereal GDD! At least you'd get to see the dice rolled first, very gratifying when they mostly don't land! Also importantly, it means you can't be cheeky and use 1 or 2 bases to tie up a death star; wouldn't want to face 3 or 4 though!

For Command Abilities would you suggest maybe making the Magic Phase into the Hero Phase? I could totally see that, only the Age Of Sigmar turn order makes a lot more sense at that point. Those abilities could cover all sorts of things: Lance and Square formations, inspired or lashed into forced marches, Black Orcs supppressing animosity, My Will Be Done, march in Command range or when leading a unit, or immune to crumble for us... They could be like Magic Items that only Generals can purchase; that'd make the loss of a General more painful too!

 

[GDD]

I am writing a tabletop game for fun (mentioned that somewhere, donno if it was this thread) and I have looked at adopting the hero phase. Problem I have with it is that it makes sense to have range restrictions on magic, and I'd rather cast magic after I've moved. But I'd rather activate my command stuff before I move. It's hard..

I like your take on command abilities! Those are all very cool ideas.

 

[logan054]

@GDD when I get home tomorrow from work I'll write a more descriptive version of what I mean.

 

[Dragonet]

Although I'm very weak on rules compared with the distunguished company I keep on and off this forum, I have been writing a book on karate on and off for twelve years now, so I can see the potential setbacks for such a project all too clearly!
Here's a summary of what I've seen so far, not all my suggestions, not set in stone, hope it helps!


RULEBOOK:

. Mission statement: This project will be a mod rather than a completely new edition? It will be easier for players to get hold of a core rulebook, then implement changes to it.

. Personally I'd push 8th as it'll be familiar to most, the more diverse troop types are in the army books and the print quality is the best, but to get it back to 6th may take more alterations than just using 6th Edition books?

. Obtain copies and familiarise with the edition to be modified.

. Tighten the syntax to ensure that there's minimal doscrepancy between RAW and RAI.

GAME OPTIONS:

. Provide additional options in addition to points level: Magic Intensity 0 to Storm/End Times; Mystic Terrain; Extreme Formations; Apocalypse-style Unbound lists?

TURN SEQUENCE:

. Adopt Age Of Sigmar or alternate turn sequence?

. Allow alternate movement within each phase, allowing wizard duels in the Magic/Hero Phase; Gun-offs in the Shooting phase (Initiative led; war machines ASL?); cat-and -mouse and prioritisation in the Movement Phase?

ARMY SELECTION:

. 8th Edition army composition, scaleable to reduce the number of Lords and Rare units on the table?

. Maximum unit numbers to prevent hordes for elite troops and cavalry?

. Optional Extreme rules to allow death stars if agreed on before the battle?

FORMATIONS:

. Loose formation skirmishers that rank up only when locked in combat, or else just have the unit rank up in base contact normally all the time and have skirmishing just be special rules rather than a physical formation?

. Disrupted units: 360o LOS, no rank bonuses, can't march or charge, Ld test to reform?

. Single Skirmisher rule for infantry and cavalry allowing free reforms to squeeze through or past terrain or units (increased manoeuverability with ease of ranked movement)?

. Different approach to the horde concept, maybe based on overlap, ranks, numbers or some other variable quantity?

. Shield Wall/Square/Hedgehog and Lance formations to be included in the core rules; access to formations via Command abilities? Finally the Red Duke can lead a Lance formation; disciplined infantry can break a charge against their shields!

MAGIC ITEMS:

. Bigger pool of common items than in 6th but less than 8th. similar amount of magic items that are race specified.

. Limit 4+ wardsaves to infantry models?

. No rerollable armour save item?

BLOODLINES!

. Use generic list of abilities; build trees like feats from D&D3.5 with specific bloodline title and ability as an additional reward, possibly with an additional points cost?

TERRAIN:

. Mundane terrain option or bias in the rules; optional wacky terrain?

LINE OF SIGHT:

. Remove true LOS; abstract based on unit front arc and easy to measure bases in relation to terrain pieces with more specific rules?

. Infinity-style templates for drawing LOS to targets? Large targets will need to be re-evaluated.

SPECIAL RULES:

. Ethereal being a 2+ward against normal attacks, and a 5+ ward against magic attacks. So normal units aren't completely helpless against ethereals,"but only a true strike may wound one". And so ethereals don't become trash when your list happens to fight someone with lots of magical ranged stuff.

MOVEMENT PHASE:

. Random movement (but having a more direct link to the models movement value): D2 x M on the charge?

. Specific guidance on charge arc and permitted wheeling for charges? (Probably just my problem!)

. Permit units to walk into combat? Skirmishers, fast cav and fliers an inch from a unit but never in its charge arc should be a viable target for either disciplined troops that can quick reform or whatever and just walk their normal move into close combat, or poorly disciplined/frenzied troops that fail Ld and move in having broken ranks to attack! Treat undisciplined troops as Disrupted (see below).

MAGIC/HERO PHASE:

. 8th ed magic generation

. Maintain ranges for casting spells; ranges with modifiers for dispelling? Forces spellcasters nearer to the action; rewards uogh level casters with the abiliyy to backline, but tempts them forward with better modifiers?

. Power dice scaleable to battle size?
Dice pool that scales with how many magic levels you field making the magic phase heavily manipulable and thus super abusable, and punishes any players who dare not go magic heavy is a problem.
Magic and dispel dice pool should scale with the size of game directly, not indirectly by what players field. How you fluff it doesn't matter (I like bigger game -> more soldiers -> more lives in the balance -> more magical power drawn on to the battle by the winds of fate/Chaos). Suggestions:
- D6 per 1000pts
- D3 per 500pts

. Methods for distribution during a combined magic phase:
- Share out dice on generation?
- Wizards must 'channel' available dice from the pool, then use what they get; channel max. 1 die per level?
- Dispels as a standard 2D6 plus level?
- Dispels as a standard D6 x level?
- Freely available, only 1 dispel per wizard per turn?
- Wizards can cast each spell once each turn, therefore can rejoin initiative sequence after casting?
- No casting immediately after dispelling? This could be used to add tactical depth to the magic phase; force a high level dispel at the start/end of the phase to prevent the high level spell being cast?

. Agreed power dice tier? Low magic - Standard - Storm Of Magic?

. Pet hate spells: Pit Of Shades/Dwellers/Purple Sun.
Some super spells are just too super. Maybe we could just, you know, 'not', with the purple sun and pit of shades and mind razor and all?

. Command abilities for specific Lords and Heroes, to be selected in the same way as Magic Items? Generic and army specific lists, with Special Character abilities possible? Buffs to include Lance and Square formations, inspired or lashed into Forced Marches, Black Orcs supppressing animosity, My Will Be Done, march in Command range or when leading a unit, Immune To Crumble, Immune To Panic...?

SHOOTING:

. Warmachines that use cannons

COMBAT:

. Expand on combat penalties and bonuses such as Disrupted to emphasise how the units interact in melee?
This will make feigned flight and skirmisher harrassment a viable tactic to disrupt unit formations, specifically in order to take down death stars? Suggestions:
- Disrupted: Unit cohesion broken, no rank bonus, no additional rear attacks for Horde or Spears that depend on unit cohesion.
- Panicked/Demoralised (suffering from Fear): -1CR with failed Fear check; stackable?

. Steadfast?

. Supporting attacks (half models attacks round up) stepup?

. Hordes being a rule that is given to weaker units to buff them?

. MC rules from 8th (applied to all mounts).

 

[Quinten]

Things that I feel definitely need to be fixed that have not been brought up:
1. Magic that scales. The amount of magic dice needs to scale up in large games. The current system works well in the 2000pt range but begins to fall apart in extreme point values.

2. Make large units easier to hit with shooting. For every 10 models in a unit (for infantry) you get +1 to hit against them. This will help stop the 100 model units (everything will auto-hit them) and add realism to the game.

3. Less charts. The charts are one of the big barriers to getting into the game. Take out charts wherever you can.

4. Make charging easier. So many people mess up charges and the rules are clunky and unnecessarily complicated.

5. Stop really long and skinny units from super-wheeling around the board.

6. Adopt a height system for LoS like KoW. True line of sight leads to too many arguments and is unclear.

7. Again take a page out of KoW book for blasts and warmachines. They adopted a simple argument free approach that often leads to similar effects on the game.

8. Put restrictions on the amount of duplicate lords and heroes people can take. Eg. 1 for lords and 2 for heroes and then more in bigger games. This combined with the +1 to hit in shooting will help reduce the amount of deathstars in the game.

9. Change bonuses to for rank and columns. Make it so ranks allow you to make more supporting attacks and columns give you combat res. Eg. +1 to combat res for each complete column of three or more models beyond the first five. If you have at least four ranks in the unit of five or more models you can make an additional row of supporting attacks. Steadfast should remain the same but should be broken by disruption. This makes more sense fluffwise and will reduce the sizes of units.

10. Try and make it so the there is only one combat per game turn. Right now for every one time shooting units get to shoot cc units get to attack twice. This un balance should be corrected.

I have also started writing my own edition and have implemented all of these changes plus some more.