Najo's Impression of Age of Sigmar

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najo

Mortarch of the Dark Soul
True Blood
Dec 23, 2012
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Oregon
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Sorry it took me so long to get this written, I've been fairly busy and squeezing time here and there to get this done.

My article is posted here: http://www.kingdomofgeekdom.com/2015/07/the-blood-guts-in-age-of-sigmar/

Feel free to discuss or ask me questions in the thread here. I like to know if you've had similar findings or not. I look forward to hearing what you guys think.
 
Did you start a blog just to post that? Seems like an odd choice, but I guess if you have/want to share that across more than one forum maybe that's why.

Either way, it's good to see your post finally, since you had been speaking very positively of AoS. I think there is certainly a bit of action going on with AoS that can lead to interesting points without having been written explicitly. I thought it was interesting that with the 3" gap between units and the .5" close to finish a charge, it is literally impossible for a unit to get a charge off on double 1s (Baring of course a rule like our undead's noise makers for 6" min charges). I just thought it was interesting because they managed to spell it out fairly clearly without explicitly spelling that out.

I'm interested to see what happens with the 3" control bubble. I was very intrigued by this rule when I first saw it since it stated that the only way to come within 3" is to charge, and they have the rule of if you start the fight within 3" you can only choose to stay or flee. I was trying to grasp what type of scenario would lend itself to units being within 3" without them having charged (Or been charged), and I think the while "bubble-wrapped" thing, as well as simply having units close enough that they are in "accidental" combat are note-worthy. Although it might take a while to see all the minute things that might accidentally occur playing a game, and they may need "Solutions" dealt to them depending on if they seem poor interactions. But given the brevity of the rules, it is very likely they will not cause such unintended interactions, there are simply not enough rules to intend things outside of the simple permissions granted!

I'm looking forward to this week end, and seeing what happens with the box-sets release. I doubt anyone's opinion on here will change, we're more than likely already firmly in camps at this point, but for my FLGSs? It'll be something to see how positively people respond.

I saw two players going at a game of WHFB the day before AoS rules released, and I asked them if they were planning to come back the next day and try playing again. They said they had made plans for the 4th (Holiday and all) previous to realizing the rules would be out or they would have been up to play that day. I am curious if many of the people from the FLGS will be upset with the new game, or embrace it.

The week following will be my FLGS's "release" event for AoS though, as M:tG is dropping a set this weekend as well, and they do far too much business on that to simply turn it away, and it wouldn't be fair to either to divide the attention of the event. So a week from this weekend I'm hoping to have a small force of the Sigmarites put together to throw into a few games, hopefully with random people up at the FLGS and see how the community around me is reacting to the changes, since that matters most possibly. If everyone hates it, after all, it won't continue very long where I live and I won't much have to worry about it anymore :ghost:
 
I hope my insights are helpful. If more players slow down and step back to really understand the movement and its tactics in AoS, I think they will be pleasantly surprised.

As for the rules, models within 3" cannot move or charge. They must remain stationary or retreat. The way the get into combat is with the 3" pile-in. Note that they must move up to 3" towards the closest enemy model. This means they do not have to move the full amount, just enough to bring their weapons into range. What crucial about the 3" control zone is it can occur at many points during the game and its management is crucial to winning. The 3" control is AoS equivalent to being in a charge arc+earlier edition march blocking.

You can get into that 3" by charging an enemy (ending up next to a second model that will force you to pile in) or you can pile-in and cause lock down on an enemy unit for their next turn (so they can't move). You can also pile-in and then accidentally get yourself locked down, so be careful of that. But there is a whole game of baiting, charging, counter charging, piling-in and such. Fairly simple, but the actual masterful use of it will be challenging indeed!
 
Note that they must move up to 3" towards the closest enemy model.
You may want to re-read that.

It says you MAY move up to 3", there is no requirement to move if you are within that 3" range but don't want to be trading blows. You would however still need to retreat to actually function in any other way, but still, it's may not must.

But yeah, at this point I don't need things explained as much as I need to find time to get games in. I think experiencing AoS (Especially with how quick matches can be) is a far better tool to learning what is going on now, or at least for now, since it's so new :ghost:
 
I meant may. That is why I said you move up too. It's late here and I'm tired lol :P To clarify, like ia stated in my blog post, you DO NOT have to move when piling-in! That is how you maintain control in a specific position and block movement or maintain a shield wall etc.
 
Very informative. The description of creating a armour wall in front of spearmen is really enlightening. If it's spearmen you are fighting they could just reach behind the armour unit and attack the enemy spearmen directly though right? So armoured wall only works against units with 1" range?
 
Interesting read for sure.

I haven't tried the game yet, not cause I refuse to but simply cause I haven't had the time and because atm I am more excited about trying out 6th edition armybooks. But reading this does make me more interested in eventually trying it out.

Two things I am curious about though. First, I do not quite understand what you are saying here:
Another part of this combat domination is centered around the 3″ pile in. If you pin a unit down by engaging it, and then have another unit within 3″ of that enemy unit, you wait to activate the unit that is outside of your enemy’s reach. The enemy is forced to fight the unit its closest too, then when you activate the other unit that is within 3″, they pile in and attack without fear of suffering causalities that turn. This is often enough to finish off a unit and turn the tide.

How do you have another unit within 3" in the first place? I guess it could happened but I can't really get it together. And couldn't the opponent activate the unit and pile in towards the other unit, at least in some cases? Since you have to move the models towards the closest enemy model I imagine there could be situations with big units spreading out more to reach the other unit. Figuring models in the back ranks could be closer to that unit than the one the front rank is in combat with. I don't, maybe I just got you wrong xD

The other thing I wonder is how you feel about this rule that bases have no effect on the game. It just seems like a rule that is so unnecessary and easy to abuse to me. This whole deal with 'wall of armoured troops' gets a little weird I think when you consider models poking spear in between the front models, as the back models can suddenly end up closer to the enemy models than the front ones. Also, what's stopping you from moving up on other model's bases to make units more compact? Or literaly putting your models on the table in a pile, with several models not even touching the ground? That should give you plenty attacks per surface area.
 
the 'other units w/in 3" is more a defensive tactic than an offensive one - since offensively you can't come within 3" except by charging, and you need to essentially reach base to base in order to do that. But defensively, you can have a unit with reach an inch and change behind another unit. The enemy charges the front unit, and your unit with reach are now within 3" and can attack, even though the blocking unit still prevents the enemy from attacking back unless they, too, have reach.

For now, nothing's stopping you from moving onto another model's base, and you might even have to do so in order to attack some o the floatier models. A dragon posed on a 40k flying stand might be literally untagetable in melee by the current rules. All of that is ridiculous and annoying, to me at least. I don't know najo's opinion, but I would strongly recommend counting bases as part of the models, no matter what the rules say.
 
I've done the simulation:

Except for the fact that you mount a model on top of another model (like 2 skeletons lifting another skeleton up)...

there is no use movini onto another model's base. Two skeletons (20mm base) ranked up like in 8th are barely the only ones that can attack with an 1'' melee weapon, and up to 3 ranks can attack using 2'' weapons. That's it!
 
the 'other units w/in 3" is more a defensive tactic than an offensive one - since offensively you can't come within 3" except by charging, and you need to essentially reach base to base in order to do that. But defensively, you can have a unit with reach an inch and change behind another unit. The enemy charges the front unit, and your unit with reach are now within 3" and can attack, even though the blocking unit still prevents the enemy from attacking back unless they, too, have reach.

I thought he meant it as an offensive tactics as he said the enemy unit would be pinned down by the first unit. And if you play with all parts of the model counting you don't have to get into almost B2B with the back unit, just get a spear tip within 1/2".

The more I think about it the more annoyed I get at it. There are so many scenarios in which the shape of the model can be abused, like a block of spearmen where the spear get progressively longer in the back ranks, you could have all models reaching the front of the unit and everyone could attack.
 
Keep in mind that the 'standard' base size for skeletons now is going to be 25mm rounds, not 20mm squares. If you want to get as many models into 1" range on those as you currently can on the 20mm squares, then yeah, you'll end up standing on each others' bases to do it.

But yeah, modeling for advantage is certainly heavily encouraged by the rules, and I don't consider that to be a good thing.
 
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With round bases, you can form them like this:

oooo
.ooo
oooo

taking "advantage" of the gaps, not perfectly aligned like it used to be before.

Lemme check with my very limited amount of 40k models .o.

EDIT: Yup you can!
 
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There is nothing to say you can't overlap models bases. With how small/thin zombies tend to be, and some cheeky positioning, you should be able to get two "layers" (rather than ranks) of zombie models around any enemy to get them within attacking range.
 
That's what I saw and measured.

2 "ranks" of models can fight with their 1'' weapon (they get like 1/8'' on range, but that still counts)

More models can't, and Spears can fight on a 3rd rank, but that's it. There is not enough room, without turning models upside down and piling them up in a non-friendly way D:
 
Also, what's stopping you from moving up on other model's bases to make units more compact? Or literaly putting your models on the table in a pile, with several models not even touching the ground? That should give you plenty attacks per surface area.

That gave me a good laugh. I wish a pro-painter would paint a beautiful army on round bases and do something ignorant like this with amazingly painted models. The imagery would just be hilarious.

I thought he meant it as an offensive tactics as he said the enemy unit would be pinned down by the first unit. And if you play with all parts of the model counting you don't have to get into almost B2B with the back unit, just get a spear tip within 1/2".

The more I think about it the more annoyed I get at it. There are so many scenarios in which the shape of the model can be abused, like a block of spearmen where the spear get progressively longer in the back ranks, you could have all models reaching the front of the unit and everyone could attack.

Yeah, @najo uses some active language here and there, so the whole "Pinning" wording might just be a misnomer.

But in regards to your example with spearmen and and whole "modeling to your advantage". That's very interesting. Because previously, I was regarding that rule as harmless since you have to measure from the same point to the same point, so it's basically meaningless as far as "advantage". Plus the game specifies that you can not move any part of the model further than it's movement distance, so people can't like move 5" with a model that has a spear poking way out, then swing the model to "Further" it's distance. That is not allowed.

As for in combat, I see your point, although it is a double edged sword. The unit that uses such a positioning would then put themselves into range to be attacked as well (Well, assuming they come within 1"). However doing something like maintaining the 1" gap and attacking from the 2nd inch of range means that Spearmen can effectively keep themselves out of touch range from opponents short ranged melee combatants. This is one of the ideas/tactics that @najo suggested, with the spearmen having a living wall between them as a buffer against other melee units. It's a cool concept.

But I see where you come from with your issue, and how it can be an issue, especially since the game really doesn't declare you have to play with models up-right or not piled up (literally piled up) like you suggested in your half-jest previously quoted. So yeah, there are a bit of problems to be had there.

Honestly, the thing I think is most silly to me is that they elected to use 1" or 2" ranges for melee attacks. I feel this is the most cumbersome rule within the 4 pages, since it encourages/supports things like you suggested with the units model having advantage when they can "reach" farther because you modeled them funny. And I understand that GW was trying to reduce the "Base" requirement to accommodate for square AND round bases, but I think there could have been a slightly better solution. Depending on the intent, I feel like they could have simply granted a "reach" stat to weapons, where X bases back from combat can attack. Then bases could truly not matter, since even on 40mm bases, individual skeletons would attack in the same number of bases away. So for example Reach 1 would only allow the first line of bases nearest to the opponent to attack. Then Reach 2 would enable "Second Rank" of the battle line, or basically a base touching a base that is in base-to-base contact. Granted that brings in the base-size relations and the issues with square vs round. Although it would probably create too much issues with people arguing over which were in range of reach 1 or 2 or what have you, so I could see that rule being bad. But the 1" from model and the "Poking over allies" deal is a fairly stupid situation, I agree. Maybe GW will catch wind of this and find out solutions/FAQ/rule changes very quickly.

Even with play testing, games often receive the most input about bugs and such soon after launching, since so many people playing a game is usually enough to suss out errors better than the time spent looking for them.
 
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@najo I really liked your post. I have to admit I was really bummed with seeing the massive overhaul of the game that I've come to love so much in the last 2 years that I started out with it.
Seeing the complexity go, the tactical boost the magic phase gave to the game, the regiments and most of the other things that you pressed forward as concerns were the same I was having aswell.

But after reading your post, I feel like I should at least leave my concerns behind me for a minute and give the game a try. I have to admit that the part of how you love that your little daughter is now constantly asking you to play the game and found motivation to get more interested in the hobby touched me. :)

As I'm not used to other editions but 8th though having heard alot of positivity coming from people who have played 6th, I wonder what made 6th such a great edition?
 
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@najo: I'm still curious about your thoughts on bases in AoS. To me it is the single biggest problem with the game, albeit one that is easy fix (simply turn it around, ignore the models and use only the base)

@Tawg: I really, REALLY like your idea of measuring reach in bases instead of inches. That makes so much more sense. This whole deal with measuring range seems pretty frustrating to me, sure in many cases you can just count using the size of the bases, but when models get up close in non perfect symmetry that gets tricky. And bringing the tape measure down won't always work, heck that is hard in 8th sometimes when measuring between block.

@Hellion Nox: Can't really put my finger on it. 6th has good balance due to the limited amount of different units. Before the game got cluttered with stuff like warlocks it was much easier to keep balance I assume. Though it still has lot of options, with loads of different items that are quite pricey for all armies, and Dogs of War to bring more variation. All in all it feels very right to me when I play it. And to top it all of, in 6th we actually have the bloodlines in VC, which is fantastic.
 
If we're talking fitting as many models into combat as possible:

Models should be based on the smallest washer you can find, literally as small as it can be and still keep the model upright. Nothing requires the models to be on a specific base size, or even that an entire unit has to be on a consistent base size.

Spears are now the weapon of choice over hand weapons, because as far as I can see, there's no more advantage for hand weapons and shields, and spears get the reach.

On top of that, You should model your spearmen with the front 2 rank's spears upright, then everyone behind them with their spears thrust all the way forward. The front models will be in contact with the enemy models and your spearmen in the back 5-6 ranks will all be within 2-inches of the enemy, measuring from the tip of their spears.

By having the front rank's spears UP, it allows them to get right up to the enemy and prevents their spears from poking deeper into the enemy unit, possibly giving enemy models further back reach to your unit.

Having the models in the front with their spears up doesn't look aesthetically correct for a charging unit... But hey, the game rules reward you for making it look stupid.
 
For units that can have both, such as skeletons, swords generally have a better to-hit roll than spears. If you're taking a small unit (ie, you just summoned 10 skeletons), such that you expect them all to be in melee range regardless, then swords are better than EDIT: SPEARS, I meant to say swords are better than spears. Spears are, in general, the better choice for large units, though - and skeletons definitely prefer to be large units - due to getting more attacks in range.

Please do not stack models on top of each others' bases, and especially don't stack models on top of your opponents' bases. AoS fails as a competitive game regardless, so there is no justification to do something so obnoxious.
 
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For units that can have both, such as skeletons, swords generally have a better to-hit roll than spears. If you're taking a small unit (ie, you just summoned 10 skeletons), such that you expect them all to be in melee range regardless, then swords are better than shields. Spears are, in general, the better choice for large units, though - and skeletons definitely prefer to be large units - due to getting more attacks in range.

Please do not stack models on top of each others' bases, and especially don't stack models on top of your opponents' bases. AoS fails as a competitive game regardless, so there is no justification to do something so obnoxious.
Claiming certain details to not be spelled out by the rules, and subsequently making rather absurd assertions about the rules because of it is far more silly than the rules as it stands.

I mean, the rules don't need to remind you how to breath to keep that up while you're playing, why make such obviously over-the-line jumps in other situations?

Although @Infernal Skull 's idea is entirely plausible via the new rules. I don't have a witty analogy for the situation, but suffice to say, anyone who is trying to maximize "winning" in this way will more than likely be ostracized. And while I respect the things you say often enough @Infernal Skull , I feel that this argument falls into reductio ad absurdum, because you and I can certainly agree that we would not personally play in the manner you are suggesting. Further, while the rules would allow this, our ability to be sound of mind means we very well will not be seeking to abuse or twist what little rules they have presented. I will admit there are varying degrees to players understanding of "fun" vs "desire to win", so some things that seem to be twisting of rules may seem completely acceptable to another player.

I won't disagree with you if you simply dislike the game, but suggesting that anyone would do this sort of thing is like suggesting that a grown adult would push a child down to catch a home run ball at a baseball game. I mean it certainly could happen, but anyone who would be so willing would pretty much have condemned themselves.
 
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Interesting read for sure.

I haven't tried the game yet, not cause I refuse to but simply cause I haven't had the time and because atm I am more excited about trying out 6th edition armybooks. But reading this does make me more interested in eventually trying it out.

Two things I am curious about though. First, I do not quite understand what you are saying here:


How do you have another unit within 3" in the first place? I guess it could happened but I can't really get it together. And couldn't the opponent activate the unit and pile in towards the other unit, at least in some cases? Since you have to move the models towards the closest enemy model I imagine there could be situations with big units spreading out more to reach the other unit. Figuring models in the back ranks could be closer to that unit than the one the front rank is in combat with. I don't, maybe I just got you wrong xD

The other thing I wonder is how you feel about this rule that bases have no effect on the game. It just seems like a rule that is so unnecessary and easy to abuse to me. This whole deal with 'wall of armoured troops' gets a little weird I think when you consider models poking spear in between the front models, as the back models can suddenly end up closer to the enemy models than the front ones. Also, what's stopping you from moving up on other model's bases to make units more compact? Or literaly putting your models on the table in a pile, with several models not even touching the ground? That should give you plenty attacks per surface area.
You can use charges to get units in closer than 3". You can also move a model up to close to 3", charge another in and force a unit to pile in. Part of it is looking for opportunities too. The most recent game I played my opponent had a unit of chaos warriors with a tzeentch sorcerer behind them. I charged the sorcerer with Mortarch Manfred and ended up within 3" of the chaos warriors. They couldn't move, so come combat time, very few could pile in, allowing Manfred to focus on the sorcerer and keep the warriors in check, preventing them from moving fast and going to another combat. Manny whiffed and things went south, but if he had killed the sorcerer, he then would of moved out with a tactical retreat took her away from the danger.
 
@najo I really liked your post. I have to admit I was really bummed with seeing the massive overhaul of the game that I've come to love so much in the last 2 years that I started out with it.
Seeing the complexity go, the tactical boost the magic phase gave to the game, the regiments and most of the other things that you pressed forward as concerns were the same I was having aswell.

But after reading your post, I feel like I should at least leave my concerns behind me for a minute and give the game a try. I have to admit that the part of how you love that your little daughter is now constantly asking you to play the game and found motivation to get more interested in the hobby touched me. :)

As I'm not used to other editions but 8th though having heard alot of positivity coming from people who have played 6th, I wonder what made 6th such a great edition?
6th got simplified, all the army books dumped and replaced with a booklet called ravening hordes, the magic became the winds of magic power and dispel pools, regiments became the focus and all the hero-hammer nonsense was changed out.

ironically, Age of Sigmar is doing a similar reset.
 
@najo: I'm still curious about your thoughts on bases in AoS. To me it is the single biggest problem with the game, albeit one that is easy fix (simply turn it around, ignore the models and use only the base)

@Tawg: I really, REALLY like your idea of measuring reach in bases instead of inches. That makes so much more sense. This whole deal with measuring range seems pretty frustrating to me, sure in many cases you can just count using the size of the bases, but when models get up close in non perfect symmetry that gets tricky. And bringing the tape measure down won't always work, heck that is hard in 8th sometimes when measuring between block.

@Hellion Nox: Can't really put my finger on it. 6th has good balance due to the limited amount of different units. Before the game got cluttered with stuff like warlocks it was much easier to keep balance I assume. Though it still has lot of options, with loads of different items that are quite pricey for all armies, and Dogs of War to bring more variation. All in all it feels very right to me when I play it. And to top it all of, in 6th we actually have the bloodlines in VC, which is fantastic.
I agree bases may pose a problem. The intent is to keep bases out of the way, and measuring to the model somewhat works as any modelled advantage becomes a disadvantage, but I think just play Spirit of the Rules and it's fine. Heck, use bases instead. Pretend the base is the furthest point on the model
 

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