Najo's Review of End Times Magic
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The BRB, of course.
Which was CHANGED by the new rules in Warhammer: Khaine. Do you have that book?
Yes obviously, and no it was not changed. They changed spell generation, power/dispel dice generation and usage, spell limits, broken concentration, and that's it.
They did not, as you claim, change everything. Failing to dispel is part of dispelling, and that did not go away. Page 35.
Failing to dispel when you can't use the same caster for future dispels was part of the broken concentration rule in the brb. That is gone! So my opponent rolls 4D6 for a Throne of Vines. He scours an average of 14 plus his level (4) for a total score of 18. My level four rolls a D6 and is unlucky and gets a 1. Impossible for him to dispel a spell cast with a result of 18. Your position is that my level 4 cannot try to dispel anymore spells that phase? That is NOT what the news rules in Khaine say.
Well Khaine abrogates that rule in my read of it. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Even more nonsense the writers did not consider when they printed this trash. Here I thought we got rid of Mat Ward. Turns out they're all as bad as him. 
Well, that's fine and all as a house rule, but just be aware that people probably would rather play by the book.Well Khaine abrogates that rule in my read of it. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Infernal Skull
Wight King
I've got to agree with Veritas (good catch, BTW). Broken Concentration is a specific rule with its own heading under casting on page 32 .
The rules for dispelling say that if the dispelling Wizard fails the dispel he can't attempt another in the same phase. That dispelling rule is not referred to in any way as "broken concentration," it does not have its own heading; it's just part of the rules for dispelling under "Dispel Value."
All Khaine says is:
"The rule for Broken Concentration on page 32 of the Warhammer rulebook is no longer used, but the Not Enough Power rule on the same page still applies." It makes no reference to the dispelling rules being altered.
So that makes it even MORE difficult to stop spells. Great.
The rules for dispelling say that if the dispelling Wizard fails the dispel he can't attempt another in the same phase. That dispelling rule is not referred to in any way as "broken concentration," it does not have its own heading; it's just part of the rules for dispelling under "Dispel Value."
All Khaine says is:
"The rule for Broken Concentration on page 32 of the Warhammer rulebook is no longer used, but the Not Enough Power rule on the same page still applies." It makes no reference to the dispelling rules being altered.
So that makes it even MORE difficult to stop spells. Great.
You see it detailed in Khaine what the dispelling wizard is suppose to do. Roll a D6. It never says that if he fails to dispel he is done. In fact it indicates he has to roll a D6 every time. YES, it is horribly written! What about Dwarves that have no Wizards? Guess they dispel as normal and ignore the D6 restriction and add their natural +2 to all dispel attempts. o_o What if the player chose not to field any wizards (pure Khorne army)? Then what do you do? Khaine does not really spell that out.
All this is academic for me. We're not likely to play with EoT magic at all and if we do we will play that a dispelled spell means 'unsuccessful' casting. Yes, I am aware that is not RAW. But it is the only sane way to play and keep the game a game. I won't be attending any tournament that uses EoT magic the way it is written. I have better use of my leisure time. Watch Skaveninaz's batrep and tell me this is the kind of game you want to spend your Saturday or Friday night playing.
We're gonna play it like Yorga suggests ( and almost everyone here that can see the imbalance D: ) and just restrict re-cast on failed/dispelled spells each phase.
Now, about RiP spells, I've been thinking that, as long as different wizards cast the same spell, it can be duplicated, but not by the same wizard. I also like the idea that using the army to dispel should have no limitations on the D6 dice roll, so that dispelling is still tactical, just as casting is.
I'd limit the amount of casting attempts of bound spells to once, as I think abusing the Casket of Souls is just as bad as using Soul Quench x20 a phase. Only wizards should be affected by this "upgrade" in magic and that's how we plan to play it.
(I hadn't considered the High Magic lore attribute... that's actually not that bad, provided we use the house rules mentioned above)
I believe that's the best way to play it.
Also, our local Chaos Player asked if his sorcerers could use the Chaos ascendant rules just for summoning, and it sounded like fun, so last game we allowed it and it's actiually not that bad (still used the "old" magic phase though), and a few daemonic summons were not horrible, and will play with them again.
Now, about RiP spells, I've been thinking that, as long as different wizards cast the same spell, it can be duplicated, but not by the same wizard. I also like the idea that using the army to dispel should have no limitations on the D6 dice roll, so that dispelling is still tactical, just as casting is.
I'd limit the amount of casting attempts of bound spells to once, as I think abusing the Casket of Souls is just as bad as using Soul Quench x20 a phase. Only wizards should be affected by this "upgrade" in magic and that's how we plan to play it.
(I hadn't considered the High Magic lore attribute... that's actually not that bad, provided we use the house rules mentioned above)
I believe that's the best way to play it.
Also, our local Chaos Player asked if his sorcerers could use the Chaos ascendant rules just for summoning, and it sounded like fun, so last game we allowed it and it's actiually not that bad (still used the "old" magic phase though), and a few daemonic summons were not horrible, and will play with them again.
It doesn't need to spell it out. It's right there in the BRB what you do: choose any number of D6 for dispelling. When you use a wizard you must randomize, and when you don't, you don't. Seriously, you're ignoring so many rules in your understanding of End Times magic, and for the sake of...what? Dwarves are now the best dispellers in the game again, simply because they can choose the dice, and still get the +2 bonus. They also don't have to worry about if they fail to dispel, because they aren't using wizards.
PureSphinx
Ghoul
That battle report has slanted my view completely. That was like watching Hitler and Stalin go head to head in a battle of Who's the Biggest D*ck. I'm still getting ET:K for the lore and elf armies, but GW can eat it if they think I'm playing this asstastic new magic without some heavy errata, whether on my part or theirs.
This! I played a game last night using old magic but using the new Reign of Chaos of table since I was trying a chaos legion list. It added 15 minutes to the game on its own. Every one of my phases I had to roll and resolve the effects to my opponent. We were using 2d6 dice for magic. It dawned on me if we used 4d6 then I pretty much could NOT roll a bad effect for my army. These new rules are just ass. Should not be two highest dice rolled on four. It should be take the highest and the lowest. Otherwise is so over powered.
John Rainbow
Crypt Horror
I appreciate you writing this up Najo. I haven't got my hands on the new rules yet but it seems to turn out as I imagined it would.
Great post Najo. I couldn't agree with you (& Sunny) more.
That battle report really reinforced my dislike of both recasting and random power/dispel dice limits. Dispels preventing recast would make it slightly less terrible, but not enough to make it a game worth playing. If you want overpowered unbalanced magic, then play Storm of Magic - at least that can be fun in a casual context. End Times magic just seems frustrating and unfun, lacking in any sort of thought or even interactivity between the players.
End Times Magic is really the first and so far only thing to come out of the end times series that I've really, viscerally disliked, and just do not want to play. Even the OTT super characters like the Eternity King have some appeal to me, but this? Nah, no thanks. And it's a real shame, because I like the idea of apocalyptic super magic as an occasional scenario thing, and really enjoyed Storm of Magic in casual games.
End Times Magic is really the first and so far only thing to come out of the end times series that I've really, viscerally disliked, and just do not want to play. Even the OTT super characters like the Eternity King have some appeal to me, but this? Nah, no thanks. And it's a real shame, because I like the idea of apocalyptic super magic as an occasional scenario thing, and really enjoyed Storm of Magic in casual games.
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PureSphinx
Ghoul
I think the real problem lies with the random limits. Recasting can be brutal but isn't necessarily game breaking. It's the random limits that are just plain stupid.
Honestly if I were to errata anything it'd be like this: lower the casting cost of all spells by a point, maybe two, and then super spells by a further point or two. Then, to get IF you have to roll dual 6 AND meet the cast value. If you don't meet the cast value then a dual 6 will just give you automatic min cast value for the dispeller. No dumb d6 limit, just the old 6 on cast and however many on dispel. Alas, wishful thinking doesn't help anything.
Sorry najo, I tried to think of some tactical input as you suggested, but the only tactical part of this is none of the parts. Really the best thing to do is thank Nagash that these rules are optional, and then highlight them with permanent marker in your copy of ET:K and get on with gaming.
Honestly if I were to errata anything it'd be like this: lower the casting cost of all spells by a point, maybe two, and then super spells by a further point or two. Then, to get IF you have to roll dual 6 AND meet the cast value. If you don't meet the cast value then a dual 6 will just give you automatic min cast value for the dispeller. No dumb d6 limit, just the old 6 on cast and however many on dispel. Alas, wishful thinking doesn't help anything.
Sorry najo, I tried to think of some tactical input as you suggested, but the only tactical part of this is none of the parts. Really the best thing to do is thank Nagash that these rules are optional, and then highlight them with permanent marker in your copy of ET:K and get on with gaming.
I agree that end times apocalyptic magic would have been awesome. What's really ridiculous, they could build a new miscast table for 9th that the outcome is based on number of dice you use (ie suck into the warp happens on a greater chance and hits do multiple wounds based on number of dice rolled). How likely are you to 6 dice a purple sun if it could deal D6 wounds to your caster or they get killed from Dimensional Cascade on a 2+? What if Magical Feedback deals a hit on each Wizard based on the number of dice used? You could even have Wizards roll on the miscast table a number of times based on the number of dice rolled. 1-3 dice could be once, 4-5 twice and 6+ three times.
My point, the magic system's interplay between players and flow is based on being able to choose the number of dice you cast and dispel with. The issue was six dicing spells removes that interplay because of Irresistible force and the risk to the wizard is minimal as they are likely to suffer a single Wound and then end their magic phase. Change that risk factor though. Make it so they either A) can't get Irresistible Force or B) suffer greater risk when miscasting based on the number of dice used. This allows players to weigh the risk/reward and would deter the six dicing in a more organic manner.
So this is how I see how End Times Magic could have been:
1) No broken concentration.
2) Roll 4d6 for winds. Opponent gets highest two for their dispel pool. Reign of Chaos uses the Highest and Lowest rolls.
3) New Miscast table based on number of dice used for casting. Bound spells chance of destruction based on number of dice.
4) Wizards roll for spells known. If a duplicate is rolled they can choose a spell. All Wizards know the Signature Spells from their lores in addition to spells rolled.
5) End Times spells are known by wizard of level 3 or higher. End times spells cannot be dispelled.
6) I'm torn on recasting. If you allowed it, I would go the must be successfully cast (i.e not dispelled) route and allow it on spells of casting value of less than 15.
So, this would give you greater power and dispel. Reign of Chaos would remain balanced. Six dicing would be deadly to wizards, but magic phase interplay is retained. New end times spells are there, but riskier to cast but of new table. Wizards have one extra spell and Wizards of level 3-4 have 2 extra spells plus there is recasting.
Then when 9th comes out:
1) No broken concentration.
2) Roll 2d6 for winds.
3) You use the new miscast table.
4) Wizards roll for spells like in 8th.
5) No End Times spells or recasting.
So, end times represents when the magic is crazy and dangerous. New miscast table, extra dice and recasting reflect that. Once end times settles down with the winds being bound to the Incarnates, things mellow but are never quite the same. So we go into 9th with wizards being able to cast ore freely but having greater risk. End Times introduces us to the new magic system in 9th and we feel the transition from 8th, to end times to 9th. Could have been really cool.
Any rate, that is how I would have done it.
My point, the magic system's interplay between players and flow is based on being able to choose the number of dice you cast and dispel with. The issue was six dicing spells removes that interplay because of Irresistible force and the risk to the wizard is minimal as they are likely to suffer a single Wound and then end their magic phase. Change that risk factor though. Make it so they either A) can't get Irresistible Force or B) suffer greater risk when miscasting based on the number of dice used. This allows players to weigh the risk/reward and would deter the six dicing in a more organic manner.
So this is how I see how End Times Magic could have been:
1) No broken concentration.
2) Roll 4d6 for winds. Opponent gets highest two for their dispel pool. Reign of Chaos uses the Highest and Lowest rolls.
3) New Miscast table based on number of dice used for casting. Bound spells chance of destruction based on number of dice.
4) Wizards roll for spells known. If a duplicate is rolled they can choose a spell. All Wizards know the Signature Spells from their lores in addition to spells rolled.
5) End Times spells are known by wizard of level 3 or higher. End times spells cannot be dispelled.
6) I'm torn on recasting. If you allowed it, I would go the must be successfully cast (i.e not dispelled) route and allow it on spells of casting value of less than 15.
So, this would give you greater power and dispel. Reign of Chaos would remain balanced. Six dicing would be deadly to wizards, but magic phase interplay is retained. New end times spells are there, but riskier to cast but of new table. Wizards have one extra spell and Wizards of level 3-4 have 2 extra spells plus there is recasting.
Then when 9th comes out:
1) No broken concentration.
2) Roll 2d6 for winds.
3) You use the new miscast table.
4) Wizards roll for spells like in 8th.
5) No End Times spells or recasting.
So, end times represents when the magic is crazy and dangerous. New miscast table, extra dice and recasting reflect that. Once end times settles down with the winds being bound to the Incarnates, things mellow but are never quite the same. So we go into 9th with wizards being able to cast ore freely but having greater risk. End Times introduces us to the new magic system in 9th and we feel the transition from 8th, to end times to 9th. Could have been really cool.
Any rate, that is how I would have done it.
Storm of Magic looked interesting. Couldn't get my buddies to play (since they are so Tournament focused) but it looked fun. But in that game, as I understand it, you win or lose simply by how many Fulcrums you control at the end. All your troops and monsters are just a means to this end. So you could lose a whole army almost and win if you sat on more Fulcrums. The trouble with EoT is that you lose if you lose your army. The concept doesn't work. o_o
I was digging the new character allotment from EoT and even the combined profile special characters. I was all on board through Glotkin. But then came Khaine. Tell me that Elves won't totally dominate if they are allowed at uncomped events. The combinations you can make with all three elven books is just so OP. Some say the same about Chaos, but really...what did they add to Chaos other than warriors being able to take skillcannons? So yes...upped their power some but not much more than it was. Not the same for the Elves. The three combined overcome ALL weaknesses that were built into the three separate books.
@Yorga Warriors of Chaos gain Reign of Chaos. Beastmen gain marks, eye of the gods and Reign of Chaos. Daemons get a better Reign table, but become unstable instead of instability, which has its pros and cons. So Chaos is gaining more than Undead Legions. There are some strong combos we are starting to see too, the Beastmen Braystone with Chaos Wizards being one of them.
Elves get a lot of synergy and power. All their Army special rules are plain better and most of the units cover the weaknesses in the other armies. With that said, the elves are all still T3 everywhere, so that weakness is still there.
Elves get a lot of synergy and power. All their Army special rules are plain better and most of the units cover the weaknesses in the other armies. With that said, the elves are all still T3 everywhere, so that weakness is still there.
GhoulKing505
Grave Guard
We no longer die if our general does... that seems pretty huge to me. We also got a model that cancels crumbling from combat that works with our BSB so we can lose by two and still take no wounds. Our armies weaknesses have been taken away to an extant. We still have crap core but chaos is still exspensive and elves are still only T3 so some weaknesses remain. I think it's about as balanced as it was beforehand. That's disregarding end times magic at least.
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
I never understood the whole elves are toughness 3 weakness. Aren't all man sized troops toughness 3? Isn't that basically standard?
You could name me toughness 4 units, but they pay for that toughness which means toughness 3 isn't a weakness it is just the lack of a strength which is different. My skeletons not having a breath weapon is not a weakness it is just not a strength.
It's not like the entire army is t3, just the elves, but that is true of any human army.
You could name me toughness 4 units, but they pay for that toughness which means toughness 3 isn't a weakness it is just the lack of a strength which is different. My skeletons not having a breath weapon is not a weakness it is just not a strength.
It's not like the entire army is t3, just the elves, but that is true of any human army.
That's true. I forgot that happens lol. Actually, the whole not needing a vampire or nehekharan spell caster is a big deal. You can field level 4 shadow or life wizard really easily.
I think recasting is a mistake in general. The whole 'game' of the magic phase is in baiting out dispel dice to get your spell through, and being able to just cast the same spell over and over again kind of undoes that.
Yeah, letting successful dispels cancel the chain helps, but even then, is that what we want the magic phase to aim for? The same spell over and over again? No. Spamming is the opposite of fun and interesting game play. Let a spell get off once, then you try something else. It keeps the variety going. And running out of other spells gives you incentive to risk more dice on the big apocalyptic spells which are the entire point of pushing magical cataclysm scenario rules.
With 4d6 dice running out of spells could be an issue, but I don't think recasting, or knowing every spell in your lore, is the answer, here.
Yeah, letting successful dispels cancel the chain helps, but even then, is that what we want the magic phase to aim for? The same spell over and over again? No. Spamming is the opposite of fun and interesting game play. Let a spell get off once, then you try something else. It keeps the variety going. And running out of other spells gives you incentive to risk more dice on the big apocalyptic spells which are the entire point of pushing magical cataclysm scenario rules.
With 4d6 dice running out of spells could be an issue, but I don't think recasting, or knowing every spell in your lore, is the answer, here.
LordTobiothan
Crypt Horror
I don't agree. I'd rather 6 fireballs then one purple sun. At least I can dispel a couple of the fireballs.