Neferata novel

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Shallya is a minor hedge god who Neferata turned into the Goddess of Healing and Mercy for her own agents to work in and control so as to have diplomats and manipulators pass between boarders without issue.

Uhm? She just picked a healing/nice god that was mostly ignored by the feral/aggressive tribes and made it more prominent ( or tried to ) so some of her agents can play nuns basically. Nothing too bad there? o.O

In the new version Neferata helps forge the Human Dwarf Alliance
I don't also understand what is really wrong with that? Her interactions with the dwarves was what helped her take over Silver Pinnacle after all.

only flees her own kingdom at the end of the battle not running mid battle as she did in prior lore which Peeved off Aborash
The battle was lost and not over, I am actually not sure how exactly Aborash escaped or even why has he seemed pretty intent on fighting to the bitter end. Neferata, like said, got the hell out before everything went up in flames.
 
I take it it's a good idea to get the Nagash trilogy and read that first? Abhorash getting his own book :thumbsup:
Can't wait, but he'll probably get ruined so maybe waiting is fine.
 
Yeah, but I find the quality declines as you read through El Syf. Also, unless you enjoy weight lifting and reading at the same time, try and get the trilogy in seperate books. I really liked the first book, a great deal. The second didn't really hold my interest, and missed out on a lot of details. The third looks to be rushed and I haven't yet read it fully. I moved onto Ancient Blood.

@ Get of W'soran: Ushoran is pretty cool. Have you read Ancient Blood? just finished it. Its a very fun story, and a certain Strigoi vampire begins to 'unmutate' as he eats human blood again towards the end, so there is still hope for a future return to pre-ghoulish Strigoi.

A great deal of the fluff in the latest Tomb King army book, which is newer than the first book and are generally the authority on fluff, pretty much disgards a great deal of the fluff from the new novels and 'overwrites' them. They are an okay read, but I can;t say i'm unhappy with that either, as if its good enough for the Tomb Kigs book, then i'm happy to stick to our prior lore too.
 
El Syf said:
I take it it's a good idea to get the Nagash trilogy and read that first? Abhorash getting his own book :thumbsup:
Can't wait, but he'll probably get ruined so maybe waiting is fine.

You should definitely go through the Nagahs books first, the backstory is quite valuable.
 
Sainna said:
Shallya is a minor hedge god who Neferata turned into the Goddess of Healing and Mercy for her own agents to work in and control so as to have diplomats and manipulators pass between boarders without issue.

Uhm? She just picked a healing/nice god that was mostly ignored by the feral/aggressive tribes and made it more prominent ( or tried to ) so some of her agents can play nuns basically. Nothing too bad there? o.O

In the new version Neferata helps forge the Human Dwarf Alliance
I don't also understand what is really wrong with that? Her interactions with the dwarves was what helped her take over Silver Pinnacle after all.

only flees her own kingdom at the end of the battle not running mid battle as she did in prior lore which Peeved off Aborash
The battle was lost and not over, I am actually not sure how exactly Aborash escaped or even why has he seemed pretty intent on fighting to the bitter end. Neferata, like said, got the hell out before everything went up in flames.

But the point was she never had anything to do with the goddess, that came out of nowhere.
There have been no prior mentioned od her and dwarfish alliances in any of the books.
And finally She ran well before then abandoning the city which was why Aborash hated her which is the current lore.

I don't see how these books can be read next to the lore and consider it the same world, its a loose guideline at best, take in mind the new lore writes that Nagash is on his way back to life with Mannfreds help when all prior says he is alive now...... Boy Mannfred is going to be disappointed.
 
Duke Danse Macabre said:
Sainna said:
Shallya is a minor hedge god who Neferata turned into the Goddess of Healing and Mercy for her own agents to work in and control so as to have diplomats and manipulators pass between boarders without issue.

Uhm? She just picked a healing/nice god that was mostly ignored by the feral/aggressive tribes and made it more prominent ( or tried to ) so some of her agents can play nuns basically. Nothing too bad there? o.O

In the new version Neferata helps forge the Human Dwarf Alliance
I don't also understand what is really wrong with that? Her interactions with the dwarves was what helped her take over Silver Pinnacle after all.

only flees her own kingdom at the end of the battle not running mid battle as she did in prior lore which Peeved off Aborash
The battle was lost and not over, I am actually not sure how exactly Aborash escaped or even why has he seemed pretty intent on fighting to the bitter end. Neferata, like said, got the hell out before everything went up in flames.

But the point was she never had anything to do with the goddess, that came out of nowhere.
There have been no prior mentioned od her and dwarfish alliances in any of the books.
And finally She ran well before then abandoning the city which was why Aborash hated her which is the current lore.

I don't see how these books can be read next to the lore and consider it the same world, its a loose guideline at best, take in mind the new lore writes that Nagash is on his way back to life with Mannfreds help when all prior says he is alive now...... Boy Mannfred is going to be disappointed.

Let us start!

About dwarven Alliance. It was never mentioned at all what she really did or how she even took over Silver Pinnacle. It just happened from what I understood. So really the lore there is not wrong.

Abandoning the city! It was actually stated in the army book (or somewhere else?) that she abandoned/ran before the city was even really attacked? Because in the book she does run before the end but she gave it basically one shot as she had a chance of victory.

About the goddess. Why is this so bad again? She just used a minor goddess and pushed it into a more prominent position with having her spy's play healing nuns. Most of that fell apart/disappeared at the end as well.

Also I admit I know nothing about Nagash current situation. I know he get's resurrected, attacks the empire, he dies, then I am blank x) Though last time I had a chat about this someone said his either alive or well close to being whole again and some vampire is helping him get his last toys so he can make a grand return.
 
Silver Pinicle was never called into doubt.
Simply that the first human alliance from warhammer time lines with the dwarfs was sigmar and his people, not the Strigoi and she played no part in that alliance.

I'll dig it out for you from the Liber Necris when it is not 1:30 in the morning, to late to get page references.

It changes the whole god mechanics, nothing was said to say otherwise but at the same time this is never mentioned in any lore, source or novel anywhere else, its akin to saying Ulfric is in fact started off by Aborash and his warriors as a group of the elite who turned to worshiping the warrior god and spreading his teachings.

I am trying to avoid Vashanesh as he was just ignored all the way through the book and Alacazad plays a much larger role than he ever did in the lore (still wielded the sword the killed Nagash at the behest of the council of 13, not arguing that)
He is alive according to lore but the last army book says Mannfred is bringing him back and he is still dead, remember the Mannfred, Kemler alliance?
 
The dwarven alliance was really a trade thing and not a proper alliance. After all they held a grudge due to past events xD

Also no thank you about Liber Necris! As GW said that the book should be ignored then I am ignoring it X) Not saying it's bad but I feel that keeps things easier.
 
Alixen said:
@ Get of W'soran: Ushoran is pretty cool. Have you read Ancient Blood? just finished it. Its a very fun story, and a certain Strigoi vampire begins to 'unmutate' as he eats human blood again towards the end, so there is still hope for a future return to pre-ghoulish Strigoi.
Haven't read it since it first came out as I found it a poor read so I don't remember much from it although the 'unmutate' part is pleasant at least.

Also no thank you about Liber Necris! As GW said that the book should be ignored then I am ignoring it X) Not saying it's bad but I feel that keeps things easier.

That's too bad since from what I've read about the new stuff online it doesn't nearly compare to how awesome the Liber Necris was.

I'll dig it out for you from the Liber Necris when it is not 1:30 in the morning, to late to get page references.

I assume you were looking to reference the parts talking about how before the city was even properly attack Nefereta, Ushoran and some of the others ran like a bunch of cowards, I think Vashanesh stuck around for abit but seeing things where crap got out of there.
The only named Trueborn I recall definitely sticking around where Abhorash to the bitter end and W'soran because he was defending the Library whilst some of his acolytes saved texts (and the rest burned because they totally where book nerds and didn't want to leave).

its akin to saying Ulfric is in fact started off by Aborash and his warriors as a group of the elite who turned to worshiping the warrior god and spreading his teachings.

That would both be hilarious and incredibly depressing :tongue:
 
Sainna said:
Also no thank you about Liber Necris! As GW said that the book should be ignored then I am ignoring it X) Not saying it's bad but I feel that keeps things easier.

They didn't say it as a whole, a few of the 'directors' at the time supposedly mentioned it to authors. As it is though, the only things to contradict it are the Time of Legends books, which are in turn 'overridden' by the Tomb King army book. As far as i'm aware, Army Book fluff comes first, as its directly from GW, as BL is a side branch like Forge World. It was Vashanesh there was discussion of dropping entirely, and the Time of Legends books are the first to actualyl attempt it, only to have its own stories/take stomped on in turn.

Its like a circle of ignoring and overwriting. Future Work>TK Book>ToL Nag and Nef>Necris back to TK book. Whats in the Tomb King book (and Vampire book) still fits more closely with the Necris than the ToL books.

I'm sticking with the Necris if only because I enjoyed every page of it and it made the world feel satisfying. If the Nagash and Neferata books did the same for you, awesome, they are canon. Just not for all of us. :D

@ Get of W'soran: In that case I won't worry about spoiling. The Strigoi nvovles is nfact Ushoran, and after feeding he starts to regain his power, and 'decides' to gather his people back at the runs of Mourkain to rebuild. I reckon its obviously something to do wth Nagash.

I have to admit, I can see Neferata having a hand in the creation/running of the cult/church of Shallya. It makes sense as her entire Bloodline is about infiltration. Its just about the last place anyone would expect vampires or vampire agents, while offering a great many opperunities. It may seem odd, but we have to remember that Neferata by far predates anything the Empire worships, including Sigmar. The Empire is young, as quickly a sits advancing. And she will have had a large part of shaping it from the inside, as that has been one of her focuses snce she was manipulating the tribes that would become the Empire.

I also really like the fact that everyone is running around tryng to ressurect Nagash, and he's already sat somewhere 'alive' and well. He's been recovering a long time. I don't see a mixup of lore here, just that Mannfred and the others are working off a false assumption. It would also explain things like the Strigany beng called back to Mourkain. Kemmler and Krell (with his own motives) being on the move again. So many cool little things that fit together.
 
Sainna said:
The dwarven alliance was really a trade thing and not a proper alliance. After all they held a grudge due to past events xD

Also no thank you about Liber Necris! As GW said that the book should be ignored then I am ignoring it X) Not saying it's bad but I feel that keeps things easier.

It became a proper alliance, they fought against foes together, traded weaponry and goods, came to the aid of the dwarfs.
Thats a real alliance in my books.

The Liber Necris is the single greatest book (Even more so than Nights Dark Masters) about warhammer vampire lore.
GW want you to ignore it and prior lore in every other book because they can not keep their story straight which is shameful.
They still sell the Liber Chaotica.... Wonder when they will instruct you to ignore that one as well?....




Get of W said:
Alixen said:
@ Get of W'soran: Ushoran is pretty cool. Have you read Ancient Blood? just finished it. Its a very fun story, and a certain Strigoi vampire begins to 'unmutate' as he eats human blood again towards the end, so there is still hope for a future return to pre-ghoulish Strigoi.
Haven't read it since it first came out as I found it a poor read so I don't remember much from it although the 'unmutate' part is pleasant at least.

Also no thank you about Liber Necris! As GW said that the book should be ignored then I am ignoring it X) Not saying it's bad but I feel that keeps things easier.

That's too bad since from what I've read about the new stuff online it doesn't nearly compare to how awesome the Liber Necris was.

I'll dig it out for you from the Liber Necris when it is not 1:30 in the morning, to late to get page references.

I assume you were looking to reference the parts talking about how before the city was even properly attack Nefereta, Ushoran and some of the others ran like a bunch of cowards, I think Vashanesh stuck around for abit but seeing things where crap got out of there.
The only named Trueborn I recall definitely sticking around where Abhorash to the bitter end and W'soran because he was defending the Library whilst some of his acolytes saved texts (and the rest burned because they totally where book nerds and didn't want to leave).

its akin to saying Ulfric is in fact started off by Aborash and his warriors as a group of the elite who turned to worshiping the warrior god and spreading his teachings.

That would both be hilarious and incredibly depressing :tongue:


Vashanseh did stick about for the battle as did many others who died for it.
Aborash left towards the end when all was lost as did many of the other vampires, some fled early, some late but a ruler should never abandon their people then act all high and mighty about it.
He did try to save what he could but then again W'soran was always like that when it came to knowledge.

You did just remind me of another part of the book though, apparently Nefrata became the first vampire through Arkan The Blacks Blood and not the elixer that she and W'soran created using what they had saved of Nagash's texts. :swear:


Shallya was depressing enough, I did not need Sigmar playing to the clut of Ulfric/ Aborash as well. :thumbsdown:
 
Duke Danse Macabre said:
Vashanseh did stick about for the battle as did many others who died for it.
Aborash left towards the end when all was lost as did many of the other vampires, some fled early, some late but a ruler should never abandon their people then act all high and mighty about it.
He did try to save what he could but then again W'soran was always like that when it came to knowledge.

You did just remind me of another part of the book though, apparently Nefrata became the first vampire through Arkan The Blacks Blood and not the elixer that she and W'soran created using what they had saved of Nagash's texts. :swear:


Shallya was depressing enough, I did not need Sigmar playing to the clut of Ulfric/ Aborash as well. :thumbsdown:

I did think Vashanesh stuck around for a while at least as he had command of the City Guard or something, where Abhorash was the commander of the Royal Guard so...the decent soldiers :tongue:

Aye W'soran also wasted time failing to convince his gets that where too old too control to leave the library.

Yea I heard the part about the elixir creation changed >.>
 
Vashanesh was the leader of the armies of Lahmia, he was a officer in the armies of the other kings before coming to Nefrata to tell her what they were plotting and delayed the war for hundreds of years but espionage.
His armies won countless victories but were always pushed back after every win because they were fighting so many times their own number they could not win in a direct fight.

Aborash only had the Royal Guard but they tended to stay and fight rather than stay with you know... The Queen.

I'm writing these books off as good books which add nothing to the world but inconsistencies as the people who have wrote them have obviously never read the lore behind the army.
 
It might be shameful or not but it does not matter to me. If at one point GW tells me that everything in Neferata or even say a new vampire army book is to be ignored in favor for some new lore, I will do it even if the new lore will annoy the jebus out of me.
 
I can't follow the mindless GW doctorate of:

-Listen to what we tell you.
-Ignore what we tell you to when we do.
-Buy our models
-Price Rises are you're friends which help to guarentee you a steady supply of new quality models
-No other companies exist
-Rackham is a curse word.....

Sure the book works as a stand alone piece but the problem is, it is not.
It is a pile of ill conceive garbage tied together in a paper back with a few names sprinked in speaking about things that not only never happened but go against what they say happened which they can't remember.
Its like the new Star Wars 7 posters for the movie coming out, I don't remember this part of star wars but just because they say forget everything else, this is how it happened does not make it so:


635dba6f98a3-1.webp
 
Just differing points of view, Sainna, nothing shameful in it. I was exactly the same way until about a year ago. Infact, I still am in many of my hobbies. Its just Warhammer has always had a very maliable canon, to the point it actually barely had one when it first released from what I understand.

Also just keeping up with the changes are difficult; like I mentioned, the Tomb King army book pretty much renders the Nagash Trilogy none-canon, by changng large parts of it, which could very well extend to Neferata, as it is basically a continuation of her story based on those books. So arguably its already happened. It basically comes now to the ToL Nagash books changed a lot of pre-established lore, not just from the Necris but from the army books from what I can gather, and the lastest Tomb Kings book has stuck wth its guns.

People don't keep the wiki's up to date, and to know it all you would need to own all the supliments and buy all the army books as they came out, and few have that sort of cash. The Tomb Kings army book goes into Arkhan and his backstory, telling a different tale to the ToL books. Neferata was the one who wanted to trap and kill Khalida, and then tred to turn her, before the goddess stepped in due to her faith - which couldn't happen due to the ToL severing the Nehekharans connections to their gods. Instead it had it as Khalida was just too far gone to drink. Hell, the latest tidbit I got was Arkhan assaulting Altdorf and seizing the Liber Mortis, and thats from the Empire book. I just happened to have friends with both. Who knows whats hidden in the timelines of other army books.

So while I respect your desire to follow the stories the authors want to tell, for me personally its too much hassle, if not impossible. Any author can write anythng he wants practically, stomping on others writers creations in the process, as the author of Nagash (practically) admits to doing in his foreword. They don't have a lore master like the TES series or Star Wars to make sure verything is as aligned as possible, and to correct authors upon recieving drafts. This leads to differing tales almost every time, and changes wth each release. Factoring in the issue that army books come first, and the writer don't seem to give a damn about the Black Library, things can reset or change in something as simple and tiny as a throw away sentence in timeline. Then we also have to factor in that some books can be put under the Unreliable Narrator tag like the Gotrek and Felix books, or Genevieve which if remember right is widely regarded as a fictional play in the Old World, and you have a real mess that in my mind is almost impossible to actually keep straight.

Mike Lee wrote in his forword for the Nagash trilogy: "..."Send me over the background material and i'll start working on an outline"... What I recived, a month or so later, were about twenty photocopied pages from the Tomb Kings army book. They included a couple of maps oh Nehekhara, a chronology listing the major events of Nagash's reign of terror and a brief history covering the origins of the undead. That left me a great deal of creative freedom to portray the land of Nehekhara and its people, as wel as characters who find themselves caught up in Nagash's evil schemes."

Basically he recieved a fraction of the actual background materials already a part of the world, even if you want to discount the Necris and Night's Dark Masters both, and bascally went on to write whatever struck his fancy, even if it conflicted with previous (or future for that matter) lore. I don't think he actively chose to throw out Abhorash, he just wasn't menton in the timeline or materials he worked off of. I may not be a sucessful author, but it seems common sense to at least read up a little on other sources, rather than relying on what little he was handed in a rich world like Warhammer. Its like being handed a couple of chapters of Lord of the Rings, and going on to re-write the Hobbit from details Bilbo mentions. He didn't do his research.

So, yeah. I'm not going to say you are wrong to respect an authors right to tell his story his way. I just personally find it hard to respect dozens of authors stories told their way when they conflict, and worse, trample previous lore, and ahve over-authors who write the army books and in turn trample their stories. Its like the stampede scene from Lion King it litrary form.

--Edit--

Also, I found those quotes you asked about in another thread, about there the idea that you can pick and choose comes from amongst fans.

"With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy. [...] Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
-- Gav Thorpe

"It all stems from the assumption that there's a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or 'true' representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- Andy Hoare

"There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."
-- Aaron Dembski-Bowden


Those... actually allow me to view the authors more favorable, and their whacky stories. I don't think much of it as a storytelling stance, but if thats what they have gone by, whatever. It also render my entire post rather pointless really. Ah well. As someone of DakkaDakka put it "We can't keep track of our background material well enough to have an established canon, so feth it, there isn't any."

Kind of takes the wind out of ones sails.
 
It would be nice if they could adhere to some form of canon though.
Just picked Neferata up today, have to say I'm finding it a really compelling read.
All the master Vampires that have made an appearance thus far (p108), I feel have been portrayed well which is a suprise!
My main gripe (and it's rather pitiful) is the layout/presentation.
In the HH novels the book title is top centre on one page and the author's name top centre the other. And chapters start on a fresh page! It looks much nicer!
 
I still think that this is going to get better and better as time passes! Though by the time it's all in a good place we might be too old to care :( xD
 
I've ordered my copy of Neferata today, so I'll see what I make of it. I tend to be 'there is a canon, so let's not tear it up' camp, but I'll hold judgement until I've read the book. Based on some of the discussion, I'm not expecting much though.
 
I get the distinct impression that it's not going to be one of those 'sit on the fence books'. I'm either going to like it, or be pretty displeased by it.

Most novels from the Black Library tend to fall short of what I expect, so this one is not likely to be different. Interestingly, most of the reviews for it on Amazon are positive though.
 
The Duke is not really pleased with the book as you might have seen! x)

Though uhm, again if you have not be sure to read at least the last Nagash book!
 

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