New 2250 list! Please I need advice on this one!

[chris_havoc]

OK so after having my ass handed to me on way to many occasions with my gaming group I've decided that my list needs some changing!

SO!

Vampire Lord 480 points
Hellsteed
Crown of the Damned
Sword of Kings
Dispel Scroll
Cadaverous Cuirass
Red Fury
Avatar of Death
Infinite Hatred

Wight King 225 points
Battle Standard Bearer
Drakenhoff Banner

Vampire 200 points
Helm of Commandment
Nightshroud
Master of the Black Arts

Necromancer 190 points
Invocation of Nehek
Corpse Cart Unholy Lodestone
Book of Arkhan

Cairn Wraiths 275 points
5 including Banshee

Varghulf 175 points

Grave Guard 390 points
25 including Seneschal, standard, and musician
Great Weapons
Royal Standard of Strigos

Skeleton Warriors 155 points
15 including Captain, standard, and musician
Spears

Zombies 80 points
20

Zombies 80 points
20

TOTAL
9 Power Dice
2 Bound Spells
6 Dispel Dice
1 Dispel Scroll
2250 points

What do you think? The idea is to put the Vampire with the Helm of Commandment in a bunker unit of Skeleton Warriors behind the big unit of Grave Guard. I'll place the large Zombie units on either side of the bunker unit to protect it from flank charges. I don't know where the hell to put the Corpse Cart I just know I want it near my infantry. Varghulf and Cairn Wraith I'm planning on playing by ear but advice is welcome! The lord is there pretty much to try and beat the hurt into everything he can.

UPDATE:
Things affected by changes:

Vampire Lord 475 points
Hellsteed
Dreadlance
Crown of the Damned
Red Fury
Walking Death
Avatar of Death

Grave Guard 380 points
25 including Seneschal, standard, and musician
Great Weapons
Icon of Vengence

Skeleton Warriors 170 points
15 including Captain, standard, and musician
Spears
Banner of Everlasting Death

Total:
2250 points
6 Dispel Dice
No Dispel Scroll :/
9 Power Dice
2 Bound Spells

 

[chris_havoc]

AH! >,< Guys I'm being seriously! I need advice on this!

 

[adeadboy]

Master of the black arts on a lvl one vamp with two spells seems like a waste to me. I would
put it on your lord and make him the caster say with MotBA and Forbidden lore, with magic items to taste.

Then I would make the Vampire the fighter, with the Hellsteed and inifinite hate. And either walking death or supernatural terror. Give him the flayed haubrek and whatever magic weapon you like. I use the sword of might or the balefire spike.

Lets you keep your lord safe in a bunker and still bring the pain where you need it.

 

[Fodderboy]

I agree with deadboy, you need to rethink your vampires.

Seeing as you have the crown for the ward save, Dread Lance plus Red Fury is always a fun combo. That's 8 hits at S5(7) Avatar of Death for the shield and you've still got 30 points for more abilities. You do lose the immunity to special attacks, but you get a ward save against those anyways.

Of course, if you want to send your general into combat, perhaps give your GG the Icon of Vengance. It's not as shiny as the two banners you already have in there, but it could help cut potential losses.

If you are only going to raise dead and spam IoN, MotBA could be quite handy. Just remember that those dice go to that vamp only.

Just my 2 pesos.

 

[chris_havoc]

Yeah I very specifically gave that vamp MotBA to support her surrounding units rather than her own other wise I would give her Dark Acolyte and Lord of the Dead for the extra spell and ability to buff up her unit. Usually I would agree with you, adeadboy, however, I'm intentionally moving away from a support casting lord as I want to try something completely different to my old lists I should have mentioned that though so sorry. Fodderboy, it's odd you should mention that because I was thinking exactly that about the Dreadlance. Then switch Infinite Hatred for something like Walking Death to prevent him suffering wounds from CR or Beguile so he can do some serious hurt in challenges. You're right that banner could be crucial. Thanks for the great advice guys please have a look at the update!

 

[adeadboy]

Have you thought about using the Carstien ring to protect your lord:
- Infinite hate and red fury using the ring, sword of might and talisman of lycne.
- Infinite hate, red fury and dread knight using the ring, balefire spike and enchanted shield.

 

[Boo]

The ring is not good on a fellow riding a flying mount. If he dies he will not be able to be resurrected because of his flying mount. But on foot with the talisman it might be a good idea.

Other than that, I think you are putting all your eggs in one basket, it seems to me that your main unit is the graveguard and the other players might just avoid it until they've dealt with your varghulf and your wraiths and then go after it with all that they've got. Your cc lord would be much better in a regiment supporting it. Maybe make two regiments of 15 gg instead?

In my opinion you've got too few combat blocks. Spread out your battle line!

Try out the combo of dread knight with dreadlance and red fury on your lord and put him in the GG unit. Beef him up with whatever other items that you find useful.

That's my two cents.

 

[chris_havoc]

Those are both pretty nice builds! I have, however, grudgingly looked at that bunkered lord idea you gave me and it really does make a lot more sense. If I put him in the skeletons and give him MotBA, Dark Acolyte, Skullstaff and the Helm he can seriously bolster the units around him as well as granting a 12" march move circle as opposed to only 6". Also it means I can give the GG the banner of the barrows as my lord is a whole lot safer. Sure a vampire on a hellsteed is not quite the power house a lord is but still tough with the Crown, Balefire Spike and Red Fury. He is especially useful against flamable and regen units. I did a simulation type thing last night and my usual unit of fully upgraded blood knights with BSB and drakenhoff banner were virtually useless against the death star. If the charge me they do roughly 5 wounds and on most occasions I do 1 back. So with 3 ranks I lose by 1 or 2 with the BSB I ignore the one and have the chance to save the second with regen. The Helm is probably the most insane defensive item I've ever seen. Virtually nothing has given my knights a problem like that before and they've charged a unit of khorne chosen with a khorne lord in there and come out on top. Also with weapon skill 7 I'm hitting even sword masters on 3's oh no wait 2's sorry I forgot the barrows banner.

Your advice has been awesome thanks so much guys... one last thing though how do I use Cairn Wraiths? I'm going up against TK and Dwarfs on Sunday and I have a feeling there are going to be caskets and anvils and that worries me.

 

[chris_havoc]

@Boo - Yeah I am a wee bit worried about the lack of space I take up. Still though I think the single unit of Grave Guard is better because they get the advantage of regen and hitting on 2's if I were to separate them intoe two units they would cost a lot more and only one would recieve the helm's advantages or regen banner. Sometimes I wish we only had to take two core units like those stinking HE! Or at least that we could use some of our other core units as core units. I'd much rather have two units of wolves than two units of zombies I'd throw in 4 fell bats then Alas, this isn't the case *single tear*

 

[adeadboy]

Have you thought about dropping the banner and adding 125 points worth of direwolfs and fell bats. 25 GG at Ws 7 is pretty hard to crack anyway and it gives you some deep strike and march blocking to help you control the field better. And that bunkered Lord is made to Ion things back to life. Seven castings all by himself if you need it, 5 to 7 wounds should be no big deal. With any luck you'll be striking first anyway (corpse cart), and how many units can take 7 str 6 Ws 7 hits and still hit back.

 

[Fodderboy]

I'm with deadboy on the banner. That's 2 wraiths an a banshee right there. About all it would help with is bad rolling from artillery, but that's what IoN is for.

Stick your Crown/Fury/Dreadlance lord on a (regular?) horse (use Dread Knight instead of AoD for +5 points) in your GG with the BotB. You can still spring out and ambush with your lord if need be, or you just scare half the battlefield into running away.

With WS 7 and BotB you're not going to need rerolls so maybe drop strigos in favour of war banner. With BSB, you've got +4CR right off the bat.

If all you want to do is raise dead and invoke, MotBA is a fine choice. DA + Lord of the Dead would give you 1 more die and allow you to take to raise your skellie unit past their starting size (it would only take 1 successful casting to pay for itself), but I think MotBA works fine.

If you were to swap your zombies for skellies (or everything for ghouls) the appropriate 'Master' would be a must.

Lose the spears on the skellies (see the tactics thread for number crunching) unless they're already glued that way.

Lose the Banner of Everlasting Death on the skellies. You have to lose 4 combats for it to pay for itself. By then, help will have arrived or all 15 skellies will be wiped out.

 

[chris_havoc]

I do agree somewhat! I'll have to play around with the list. I'm not sure what the rules are but if you elect a hero to be the BSB for instance my Wight King... can he take other magic items rather than a magic banner? I'll tell you why... I played against my DE friend last night and he destroyed me outright. He had the ASF banner on executioners so although I was 'striking first' I never actually struck first then he came along with his Assassin and focused all his attacks on my BSB he managed to get off a killing blow wound which ignored everything my wight king had going for him. So I was thinking that if I could spend just 15 points on cadaverous cuirass he'd be safe from that plus I save 110 points on the banner as you guys already pointed out. Then I'd rather give my GG the +1 banner as opposed to hatred because I already have VDM as a bound spell to give them re-roll to hit they also still get -1 wound from CR.

 

[adeadboy]

If you don't take a magic banner you can kit him out any way you want, and still get the bonuses from him carrying the battle standard.

 

[blood knight]

really nice i suggest a unit of blood knights and drop vargulf and cairn wraiths

 

[chris_havoc]

OK! So I changed the list up A LOT again and it seems that I had some success! I went up against Dwarfs though and they seem to struggle against VC at least the Dwarfs I've played.

The army I played was:

Vampire Lord:
Lvl 3
Helm of Commandment
Skull Staff
Dark Acolyte
Master of the Black Arts

Vampire:
Hellsteed
Balefire Spike
Flayed Hauberk
Red Fury

Wight King:
BSB
Drakenhoff Banner
Great Weapon

Wight King:
Black Axe of Krell

Black Coach

Varghulf

Grave Guard x 16
Full Command
Banner of the Barrows

Fell Bats x 3

Fell Bats x 3

Corpse Cart
Balefire

Corpse Cart
Balefire

Skeletons x 14

Zombies x 20

Zombies x 20

I was very happy with how my army performed. It took forever for me to actually get to a point where I was anywhere close to the Dwarfs but when I got there it was devastating. I am very glad I included the flyers! The Black Coach also impressed me immensely! I kept it back to benefit from all the bonuses but at the end of the game it was responsible for taking out his general.

 

[adeadboy]

Hice, how did the Hellsteed Vampire work out for you.

 

[Grish]

Love that you've taken the Black Axe of Krell. Not the best option, but very fluffy and I've always wanted to take it, but never seem to find the points.

I'm assuming your's is an all comers list with the Balefire on the corpse carts.

Your vampire on the hellsteed; have you thought about giving him Infinite Hatred and another power instead? Something like Beguile or Walking Death or Supernatural Horror. I think it would be more effective than Red Fury

 

[chris_havoc]

The Hellsteed Vamp was cool. He was going to take out the anvil but unfortunately lost his flying movement to the thing so he was in the range of a bolt thrower like by a hair! I don't know whether or not to take other powers instead as I've only had one game with him and he didn't make to anything worth killing. I can definately see how giving him Infinite Hatred and Walking Death/Supernatural Horror would make him a lot more versatile. He's strength 7 on the charge and he cancels out regen so he's already dishing out the hurt I suppose. +1 to combat res will mean he'll be helpful as an infantry support unit as well as hunter.

Yeah I threw in the Black Axe more to try and just assassinate any serious threat. For instance he took out the Ironbreakers' BSB. I'd imagine just targetting the unit though that he would break almost anything. Hitting on 2's wounding on 2's there's a high possibility of three d3 killing blow wounds. Probably do an average of 4 wounds.

Please note! Never hesitate to use Curse of Years! Took out five Ironbreakers negating a rank in the forthcoming closecombat.

 

[Dreadlegions]

Unfortunately, the Black Axe doesn't benefit from killing blow...

Still a handy piece of kit though.

 

[chris_havoc]

Really? Why not? I thought that it was a Wight Blade as only the Wight King can use it.

 

[Grish]

No. You lose killing blow, and the d3 wounds don't count towards overkill, as overkill isn't actually wounds caused in a challenge. A great weapon is what, 10-12 pts or something? So it's 40 more, swapping out killing blow for d3 wounds. It can be very good against certain opponents though.

Flayed Hauberk/Gem of Blood is pretty good combination with a Great Weapon, or if you have a magic heavy list, Hand of Dust.

 

[Sweeney Todd]

I don't see why the d3 won't apply to overkill, as you do not literally apply the excess wounds to the model itself but you still count them for combat resolution purposes. Of course, the max of +5 overkill still applies.

 

[chris_havoc]

What is overkill if not wounds caused in a challenge? *confused* You even roll for Red Fury after you've effectively killed the thing you're challenging, don't you? If you can kill something with the d3 wounds why would you not be able to overkill it?