New Beginnings: Where to Start?

[Doctor Lansbringer]

Hi all,

I am on the fringe of beginning a new Vampire Counts army (3rd after Bretonnians and Beastmen), already possessing the book and have a friend willing to sell me some various skeletons and vampires for discount prices.

I largely know I would like the army to be magic heavy (more so than usual, 3 out of four heroes being magic based in a 2500 pt game) and infantry heavy, containing a large block of Grave Guard as one of my main heavy cc hitters.

However, I am not sure about core units.
Skeletons seem to be a good overall bet with a +5 with spears (my likely choice) to be a block to be charged and fit better aethestically with Graveguard, but compared to Ghouls, t4 and 2 poisoned attacks seems almost a better value, but I largely do not intend to charge the best time when these abilites would pan out. Does anyone have any experiences that influences there decision when picking one or the other?

And lastly, how viable is it to take zombies as a main, hold the line core choice? There stats are... dismal, but the cheap cost and ease ability to raise (especially with the +2 PD power on two heroes) makes them appealing as a huge, shambling horde of dead. I never play in tournaments, and never intended to, often playing with a group of 5-6 people. My lists are usually a 5 or 6 on the power scale (1 being swiss cheese and 10 being super balanced to the point of hurting itself). Main question being: are zombies viable in place of ghouls or skeletons?

Thanks for the advice!



Doc Lansbringer

 

[Onikaigo]

Heya! Welcome to the dark side.

I prefer skeletons. My armies are Vastly Lahmian flavored, and as thus Ghouls with their smelly disposition and cannabalistic nature don't really sit well with me. They're good, but not in my army lists. That's a question of what you want your army to do. (Stick and flank, or hit and smash)

Now, as for the Zombies being viable as a Line Holder....I'd say no. They can do quite a few things well (Primarily demonstrated by how well they die) such as hold table quarters, roadblock, redirect and march block....but don't ask them to be a center line infantry. At most you'll have 3 ranks and outnumber Putting a standard in a zombie unit is not recommended), meaning most any army has to roll 4 wounds to beat you. What unit in Warhammer can't roll 4 wounds on zombies?

Gnoblars? Other Zombies?

Bottom line is they lose combat, a Lot. It's not good to try and 'Stick and Flank' with Zombies as they contribute a lot of CR to your opponent, and only makes you lose the combat as a whole. If you're going to do a large starting unit of zombies, use them as a Denied/Delayed flank. try to stick them into a strong cavalry unit or hard hitting unit on the flank of your army to slow them down for several turns. It's a good way to make those 80 points pay for triple their value by doing what zombies really do best; Die.

 

[Aegis]

only other zombies, gnoblars have sharp stuff =p

 

[wildcard]

zombies can hold a flank pretty well if you get the unit big enough, say, 40 :) this can hold units it for a couple of turns which is all you really need a zombie unit to do.

Zombies also look awesome and are fun/easy to convert and "muck about" with and I'd suggest a unit on the table just for that! At the very least you are going to be raising some up anyway, so why not try them out as a unit too? :)

as for the rest of the core, there is a lot of love for ghouls for the reasons you mentioned - T4 and 2 poisoned attacks. With the helm of commandment in the army, this makes them very killy (for undead core troops) and they stick around as well. Skeletons require more points pored into them to make them good (command crew and magic banner) - so the ghouls are often cheaper for similar or better game performance.

as for the "look" of them with the grave guard - you can justify anything with fluff!

My own fluff for this is that the vamp lord is a wild and visious animalistic killer with a horde of critters around him such as fellbats, dire wolves and ghouls - he was one of 3 vamp brothers and the other 2 have (de)volved into varghulfs - and the lord himself is getting close!

Over the centuries brave heroes have led their forces to try and stop his rampages and one such "hero" was turned by the lord and betrayed his bodyguard who are now cursed to walk as wights alongside this thrall as he serves his new master.

I have exra fluff for my zombies, necromancer and other vamp, but you get the jist :)

 

[Doctor Lansbringer]

Thanks for all the advice!

I can already see I would be joining the "stick and flank" group.

Hopefully soon enough I will get some minis and begin building my skele-horde of death :vampire3:

 

[Paksos]

Ive become a big fan of the ghouls - especially units of 20 at the start (I tend to find myself fighting armies with maaany dispel dice so i bring all I'll need at the outset) then use ghoulkin to throw my entire core section of my army forward 8" before the gae even begins. Follow up with our rare choices plus fell bats and black knights and you have a full on vampire blitzkrieg! :vampire3:

 

[Humaneater]

Just a note on the side: spears on skellies isn't reccommended. They're not a killy unit, with WS2 and other average-poor stats. 4+ save is better really, since they're for static CR as opposed to casualties. If you want something to do wounds then go ghouls, who are also cheaper too.

I'm a big fan of ghouls but personally, having the pleasure of facing daemons, WoC and lizzies alot (eugh, the 3 armies built to destroy VCs... Daemons are for everything really, but particularly VCs... eugh) I find they don't do alot. Since these 3 are arguably the most common WFB armies (although its fairly even in most places really, having no marines running everywhere), I'd use ghouls as a bunker for your wizards since the T4 is invaluable against shooting.

 

[The Red Scourge]

I run a little bit of everything. I use big blocks of skellies loaded with magical banners and fighty/casty vampires along with small blocks of ghoul flankers for support. This allows me to capitalize on both units strengths - the SCR of the skellies, and the killiness of the ghouls - while also giving me some nice cheap throwaway units.

I never run zombies, I might raise a few to block flee routes or take quarters, but find them to be a big drain on PD or just free CR for my opponent :thumbsdown:

 

[Humaneater]

Hmm, thats the fundamental problem with using zombies for much other than an anvil unit or marchblockers: they're free CR.

 

[Johnny B]

And lastly, how viable is it to take zombies as a main, hold the line core choice?

Many people make the mistake of thinking zombies are the same as other infantry types - they aren't. They can't pursue enemies for one - a critical difference. They are hideously poor in melee, but are equally easy to raise, they are simply a tarpit. Also, your characters can't join them, which can be a problem against shooting armies, so I would not try to use them as your main core choice. If used properly, they are simply awesome. Their role is to tie things up, they do it admirably well, and that is all you should expect from them. Unless they have WS7 from the Helm of Commandment, in which case they will likely beat many WS3 units like Kroxigors :lol:

Skeletons seem to be a good overall bet with a +5 with spears (my likely choice) to be a block to be charged and fit better aethestically with Graveguard, but compared to Ghouls, t4 and 2 poisoned attacks seems almost a better value, but I largely do not intend to charge the best time when these abilites would pan out. Does anyone have any experiences that influences there decision when picking one or the other?

Currently Ghouls are more competitive. More attacks, better WS and Poison are crucial advantages, plus T4 is more resilient against shooting. However, Skeletons look way cooler xD and the option for a magic banner is nice.

Skeletons seem to be a good overall bet with a +5 with spears (my likely choice)

Bear in mind the upcoming 8th edition, where the rumours suggest spear troops may fight in three ranks. My Skeletons are looking hopeful and crossing their bony fingers :)