New Starter Armies / Battle Forces

[Sception]

News is a week or so old, but I haven't seen any posts about it, so...

It seems several new discounted starter boxes are getting released for 40k and Age of Sigmar. Fewer models than the old battle forces, with more narrow themes, but still some pretty decent discounts if you actually want everything in the box. They'll also apparently be coming with new formation rules for the units in the box.

The undead one is supposedly "malignants" themed (AoS keyword for ghosty stuff), and includes a mortis engine, 3 spirit hosts, and 5 hexwraiths, for us$85. Separately, those kits come to us$121, a discount of nearly 30%. If your supplier discounts GW products further, then that's getting into the range of a pretty good deal, providing you're actually in need of those models.

Presumably you could build a coven throne & black knights instead of the mortis engine and hexwraiths, though I expect the included formation only covers the listed builds.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2015/12/there-are-new-starter-armies-coming.html
http://www.miniwars.eu/2015/12/rumor-rebajas-40k-age-sigmar.html

 

[Oppenheimer]

Good for for us I guess but more Nurgle and Khorne? I'm so sick of those two races.
Nice to see green skins on the list since they haven't had any love yet.

 

[Sception]

Eh, it's nurgle and khorne daemons, they haven't had as much attention as the mortal stuff of late, and I'd imagine that there are plenty of newish players out there who have been picking up on the nurgle and khorne warrior stuff who would really benefit from discount starter sets of daemonic stuff to add some variety to their forces. I wouldn't begrudge them that.

Especially since, as you say, the orcs are getting some love, as are the lizards, and if this is becoming a 'thing', then we might see more in the future.

 

[Sception]

I may or may not get the box, as I have much of that stuff already, and don't feel any pressing need for a second mortis engine (if I still played 8th maybe, but as it is...) or a coven throne (good unit, but not exactly my theme).

I am very curious as to the benefits of the formation, though. If it buffs up the mortis engine significantly then I could easily see myself picking up a unit of hexwraiths in order to run it (I already have the engine & spirit hosts), as I very much like the mortis engine model, but the rules in AoS, well, they aren't bad, but they don't exactly live up to the model's grandeur.

 

[Dragonet]

I actually have none of these models; I rock metal Spirit Hosts for
8th, and I'd hoped to convert up my own more mundane takes on the Mortis Engine and Hexwraiths, so I've never played them... Assuming I can offload the Spirit Hosts or use them on the Casket Of Souls or Mortis Engine, this should be a great deal; especially if we get the Coven Throne and Black Knight parts as I'm after those bitz as well!

 

[Sception]

I have to imagine that the box set is the same sprues as these kits are separately, so yeah, you should get the coven throne and black knight bits. Offloading the spirit hosts shouldn't be too hard, they're nice models, and even if you can't, they do work well for conversions. I've used them to help stabilize nagash, and in some unit fillers, and I've seen others use them to good effect on VC themed casket of souls conversions (though sadly there's considerably less crossover appeal to the casket under its Age of Sigmar rules, an odd reversal of what is otherwise a trend towards making VC and TC rules more compatible).

anyway, eg of spirit hosts used in unit filler:

Spoiler

 

[Dragonet]

Nicely done Malisteen, I saw the filler a few months ago, without the Spirit Hosts if I remember correctly?I definitely remember the banner, much more fitting with the Grave Guard carrying it!

 

[Sception]

I don't remember if there were pictures of the filler before the ghosts. All of it was part of the undead legions army I was building up. Sadly, rumors of AoS killed it just as I was about to start painting.

Now, under Age of Sigmar, unit fillers are obviously less of a thing. I'm not sure what to do with them now. Eh, I'll figure something out eventually.

 

[Dragonet]

Such a shame. I have literally one friend who's into AoS, the rest of us are all on 8th. I barely got started on multi basing things like front and middle rank spears and interacting troops, I only have one or two unit fillers planned, one for ghouls and one for zombies.

 

[Sception]

Yeah, shifting from a game of units, where individual models are wound markers, to a game of models, where each is their own element on the game field, really changes things, and very much punishes people who multi-based or built scenic unit fillers to fit with the old paradigm. It's kind of a sad loss.

On the other hand, a game of models is a far better fit for GW's minis products, which have only gotten more elaborate and detailed over the years. While I can understand where people might dislike the visual style, you really can't argue the overall quality of the product, level of detail, or even, with few exceptions, the value for the price, when compared to GW's closest competitors. But the 'premium product for a premium price' model just did not fit the game of WHFB. It was unreasonable to expect people to buy and paint units of 30, 40, 50, or more when each model is some sort of finely detailed and high priced product. All that extra detail you pay for isn't just unneeded, but is downright detrimental when you're trying to push yourself through assembling & painting your 30th grave guard, 40th ghoul, or 60th skeleton.

So yeah, switching to a game of models rather than units is a better fit for GW's product by far, but it's a shame that the old game was lost along the way with really no meaningful replacements, and it's a shame that people who built their armies to facilitate the old game get the worst of the transition, and while I enjoy AoS well enough, it's a shame they couldn't get a better game together to make the change.


But this is a thread about the new battalion boxes! Frankly I like them. Honestly, this is the sort of thing - interesting and affordable small starter sets for a variety of factions - that they should have been pushing from day one, instead of spending so much time focusing so exclusively on sigmarines and chaos that AoS started to feel like a game with only two real factions.

 

[Dragonet]

I agree, we have digressed as all good conversations do, but the wider issue of GW's current direction is hard to avoid. The new 'game of models' focus for AoS does suit their premium pitch better, also the bulk discounts long needed to be sorted out, you have to incentivise more rapid sales, it's just good business when slower collectors either drop off the vine and give up, or like me have time to turn to eBay and pick up everyone's unwanted seconds.

I think GW's making a lot of sensible moves at the moment; I'm most excited about the specialist games and I'm very interested to hear about the battalion discounts, but I'll still be checking eBay first, with any luck this move will drive down prices in the second hand market as well.

 

[Sception]

Yeah, I don't know what GW's problem with the specialist games was. Maybe fear of it eating into the main line sales? But I always found the opposite was the case, the side games gave new players easy entry points, and veteran gamers a refreshing change of pace to sink their teeth into when the main game seemed stale, the kind of thing that, in the absence of specialist games, led to players trying out Warmahordes or Infinity or Malifaux when 40k or Fantasy got a bit stale, some of them never to return.

So yeah, return of specialist games could be a good thing. Their stand alone board games with minis usable in the main game is a good thing. The new style battleforce boxes with appreciable discounts are a good thing. The Horus Heresy box was especially nice. I kind of worry that a lot of it is a bit too late, but we'll see.

 

[Dragonet]

Indeed, it's certainly too late for me though I admit I'm picking up the new games as they appear on eBay; the real shame is that the value of good games design is so debased by the use of the games to push sales of new model sculpts. I must be one of the only guys interested in the games themselves!

 

[Sception]

If you are interested in the games themselves, then keep an eye out for Execution force at whatever secondhand venues you frequent. It's actually a pretty fun little co-op board game. The base game gets very easy once you understand how the mechanics work, but there's a whole video-game-esque system of achievements and challenges that suitably up the threat once you know what you're doing. I found the whole thing very cute & fun.

 

[Dragonet]

Way ahead of you mate, I got sucked in by the models and stayed for the game! My mates and I weren't bothered by the achievements at the end but we really enjoyed the co-op play. I also got two copies of Betrayal At Calth, some 30k heads are losing their minds over the models but I got the card and rules real cheap, also White Dwarf had an extra mission in an issue about a month ago, only reason I've had in the past year or two to buy a copy! Now that would be a smart move, supplying some game content; I'd be dragged back kicking and screaming for content. Especially for Space Hulk.

 

[Sception]

Yeah, that 30k box looks really nice. I was tempted to pick it up for my black legion, but... I'm really committed to the more twisted/mutated look of post-dark-vengeance models, and I just don't think I could pull off decent looking chaosifying conversions of them, much as those terminators remain super tempting. Of course, resisting the purchase is easier due to just how lackluster and difficult to deliver chaos terminators are these days...

 

[Dragonet]

I don't understand how they could get the loyalists so right in Space Hulk and Dark Vengeance, and not deliver the same quality for the Traitors... I've a mate who's big into Iron Warriors and I have a crusading force including Imperial Fists so it's always game on for us! He's got two sets of the new models; I reckon the Cataphractii are the best option he has.

Back on topic, how does $85 look in£ UK? I know it's not directly linked to currency exchange; if we're looking at £60 or less it's not worth buying the kits separately!

 

[Sanguinus]

Back on topic, how does $85 look in£ UK?

$85 USD? Using the 40K rulebook as a comparison rather than currency conversion, it'd be £50.

 

[Dragonet]

That's pretty good, so not only are the spirit hosts free but the Hexwraiths are discounted as well. Thanks Sanguinius!

I also noticed a couple of very pleasing things of note in the OP and on the GW website. Pleasurebound Chaos suggests we get to keep Slaanesh, Slaves To Darkness is a nice nod to the past, and as Malisteen already wrote the army deals apply to 40k as well!

Also of note, Mantic are offering up to 50% off until New Years Eve across the range! Perfect time for me to finish my werewolf regiment, quantity over quality but I can top it up with a couple of Mierce models as previously suggested. Don't suppose anyone knows how big a Werewolf regiment is in KoW?

 

[Dragonet]

Aww darn it, discounts are only on the core sets... Still, at £12.50 for 3 I can't really lose! Loka's for sale at £20, is it a good game?

 

[Sception]

Sadly, I'm not familiar. Mantic is very much quantity over quality, but that's no a knock on them, that's exactly the design philosophy that's needed for a regiment scale minis game. Or rather, not quantity over quality, but quantity over complexity and level of detail. Their plastic is kind of terrible, sadly, but not really worse than privateers, so it's workable at least. I really do like a lot of their undead infantry, and their soul reaver cavalry are one of the better options out there for blood knight stand ins

 

[Dragonet]

I certainly agree with the infantry, I've got a nice big sword and board block of skeletons; sadly I was too late to the party on the zombies, I've already got over 120 GW ones. I've looked around for Blood Knights, there are some good alternatives out there but I accept no substitutes!

 

[Sception]

I actually prefer GW's skittles, at least the VC ones. Mantic's version have a lot of personality in a fun, goofy, sort of army-of-darkness-ish sort of way, but I prefer the soulless, lock-stepped regimental look of GW's. Plus just the details and excellant proportions on them is all fantastic, and since it's all bone it's easy to paint despite the level of detail there.

Zombies are almost the other way around, due to how old the GW kit is. I also would have rather had the Mantic ones, but have too many of the GW models already to go back and start over.

 

[Dragonet]

It's a pain but the zombies really are little more than wound counters, I've enjoyed multi basing a few at least. I use GW skeletons for my spears regiments, the poseability again is good for multibasing; I build mine exclusively as Beastmen skeletons as they're slightly bulkier than my other infantry.

I won't wait for a perfect moment anymore, I'm just going to chuck my hobby up as a plog and hope I can keep up the pace with building and updates...

 

[Sception]

Whelp, pre-orders are up, and the box set looks nice, is a pretty nice discount for GW, and seems to be a regular item, rather than a limited time deal.

The one downside is that, while the savings for buying this box is similar to that of the equivalent boxes for other factions, it seems to me that unless the included formation rules are a good bit more impressive than those the other boxes grant, ours looks to me to be weaker on the tabletop if played in straight-out-of-the-box games. No hero - all the other boxes have at least one - no major heavy hitter, nothing like the lizardmen's carnosaur certainly. The mortis engine is more of a support piece, but without any death spellcasters in the box a fair bit of that support is wasted.

It really makes me wish that Corpsemaster was the hero-spellcaster they look like.

If the formation used the Coven Throne instead of the engine, then we'd be talking. Maybe less thematic, but at least you'd have an actual character to be your commander. And the Coven Throne still has the malignant keyword. Eh, oh well.

Maybe I'm off base. The cav and spirit hosts seem roughly equivalent to the cav and infantry units in the other boxes. We'll see.

Is anyone actually planning on picking this box up? If so, could you let us know what the formation does? I really can't justify getting the box as I already have a mortis engine, and have no desire for a coven throne, but if the formation is decent I could see myself picking up a box of hexwraiths.