New to the game, small game advice?

[pagan-gerbil]

Hi there, I'm posting on behalf of my missus who has just started playing Warhammer. She deliberated long and hard on the many choices, and ended up picking Vampire Counts. This shouldn't have surprised us, given that she is a fan of vampires, bats, and we met watching zombie film marathons.

Anyway, my local group and I are starting to give her some small games to get her knowledge of the rules up - 1-2k pt games, in a mix of 1v1 and 2v2 initially.

Although we've offered as many insights as we can on the subject of army list selection, we're none of us used to playing Vampire Counts and all quite stuck in a rut with our regular armies and setups. As a result, our advice is a little uncertain and we're not sure how best to use the Vamps yet (for instance, our unanimous advice on Banshees was "errr... I don't get how useful that can be against elves/dwarves/ItP chaos... leave it out").

The main thrust and parry of all this then, is: What advice would you give a player new to the game, and specifically new to the Vampire Counts, targeted at small games of 1000pts, and what would you advise in a bigger game later?

 

[Dave Gee]

My first advice would be that they don't really work at sub 2000 points. You need characters since the standard troops are poor.

Other than that, get her to have a look around these forums. There is loads of good advice here.

Dave

 

[Master Vampire]

Welcome to the forums.

My first advice would be that they don't really work at sub 2000 points. You need characters since the standard troops are poor.

Other than that, get her to have a look around these forums. There is loads of good advice here.

Dave

Err, I wouldn't say that. The general will be vulnerable (because he has to be a Necromancer), but that's it really. If you take 3 Necro's, it can become a quite nasty magic frenzy game. However, hitty characters will be missing.

You might be right though, as the VC army needs some punch. I think the best character set up is taking a Necromancer general and possibly another one, or 2 Vampire Thralls.

Trick about VC is that the Core troops are pretty valuable. Skeletons/Zombies, Ghouls and Dire Wolves find places in many VC lists. I recommend your wife to pick units from these initially.

Use Skeletons for a good armour unit (always take Light Armour) or Zombies for total cannon fodder (no armour so die quickly, but their are easy to raise, against high S armies).

Use Dire Wolves for mage and warmachine hunting, and possibly flank charge (they are fast and can cancel rank and file!). You can use Fell Bats for faster warmachine/mage hunting though, and to make use of the Crossfire rule.

Use Ghouls for missile screens and against multi Wound units. Their attacks strike at WS 3, but they got 2 and Poison... so 7 Ghouls for 56 points gives 14 poisoned attacks... Pretty expandable.

Bat Swarms are rather useless. Spirit Hosts are not, if you want to keep a unit stuck for some time (hehe, Khorne Knights anyone?) or for missile screening.

Black Knights are pretty useful for straightout charges like Heavy Cavalry is supposed to do. Though, most include a Vampire Thrall/Wight Lord for extra kills (WS 3 is not a free entry to kills).

Grave Guard are like BK's, but slow and rank and file. They're not really worth taking considering the other, more viable options.

Banshee is good for her scream, specialised against Heavy Cavalry. Though, units who are ItP are not affected.

Black Coach is only useful if you have the points, which aren't there in 1-2k pts. They are useful against the new High Elves, who will have always strike first (impact hits go before ASF).

Some general pointers:

- Always let your Necro's take Lore of Necromancy and at least take the first spell on the list, Invocation of Nehek. Great at raising new units and adding to existing ones.

- Never leave home without standards on all rank and file units you have in the list! You rely on static combat resolution here!

- Always take 3 ranks after the first rank in rank and file units (so a unit of 20 Zombies with ranks of 5 wide and 4 ranks deep is good; you'll add later to it with IoN)

- Musicians are an option of debate. Some people prefer it, others don't.

- Always remember Fear tests, they are our best weapon! (also mind auto-breaking!)

- Ghouls are alive!

- Dire Wolves got S4 on the charge, but no AS or WS whatswhoever. Nevertheless, they are as fragile as Chaos Warhounds for Chaos.

- A unit of 5 Fell Bats behind and enemy unit is pretty deadly if that enemy unit breaks and runs.

- Make full use of raising new units behind enemy lines and in front of tough units, to create a speedbump or a redirecting charge (Frenzied units)

Cheers,
-MV

 

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

At low point levels you cannot afford any 'chrome'.

Since the general must be a mage, you are limited to Necromancer or Necrarch Thrall Vampires for generals. 2 Necromancers, one the General, and a Vampire Thrall of your choice makes for a good but expensive Character core. I would choose the entire remainder of the army from Core. Skeletons with armour and shield for the 4+ save, zombie block(s), ghouls for the flanks and wolves for fast attacks. This will give you a good idea of how the army plays. Black Knights do not appear until the 1500 point level; they cost too much when properly equipped.

 

[pagan-gerbil]

Hi

This is the wife here now

Thank you all so much for your replies.

I had been using up my points on a black coach and black knights. The black coach worked fantastically well first game, but second bigger game was quite useless! The black knights didn't get into combat at all and just stayed behind. I just didn't know how to get them involved with everything.

So of course I had very little left for zombies and skeletons and they got wiped out very fast.
I had a vampire thrall and a necromancer. All my spells were dispelled though so I used no magic thus couldn't add to my armies.
My vampire thrall only ended up in combat once, and died from combat resolution wounds.

I was teaming up with someone using an empire army. It gave us a bit of a giggle trying to work out theories of why empire and vamps would join forces together..

We couldn't quite work out how to work together though and just got in each others way.

But with that fantastic summary I should be able to work my way around it now.

And I may brave using a banshee, if only just for the sake of them sounding pretty cool! lol.

Could someone clarify exactly the best ways to use a banshee, as the other guys couldn't think of one. It seems like an unusual unit type!

 

[Gyulkus The Red]

I would suggest gettiing a second necromancer, as you won't be able to do much without good magic. Drop your coach and knights until bigger points, just get tons of zombies and wolfs and ghouls(skeletons if you wish, but I find them inferior to zombies plus the minis are a pain to assemble). What bloodline are you using? Banshees can be useful agains low leadership armies such as greenskins and empire(ogres too I'd imagine). For working with the empire, remember the empire focus' on the one thing VC don't have, shooting. So stay back with his army, let him shoot, then use your zombies to hold up units (maybe breaking them if you take a big enough unit, depending on what your fighting) and then let his empire melee units flank them (and do the same with your ghouls and wolves). Hope that helps, good luck, and welcome to the forum!

 

[Rockchickjen]

Hi

Not sure about bloodlines yet though possibly the blood dragons, is that what they are called?

I like the idea of having something more fightey to balance out the zombies being cannon fodder! lol.

Though with such small games the bloodline powers don't really seem to come into it.The good stuff seems to only apply to lords. And not enough points to really equip a little vamp thrall with much.

A second necromancer is a good idea. I was quite stuck with just one as spells were being dispelled. A second chance at casting would've been good, really needed to replace the poor core units I was losing!

Will have to let you know how the next game pans out

Jen (on her own username this time )

 

[Gyulkus The Red]

Well I asked about the bloodlines because necrarchs can Have level 1 thralls, therby giving you more magic. Blood dragons are excellent fighty characters, and can really help the weaker units win combat, but your magic will be worse. If you do do blood dragons then youll need to either take several necromancers or you'll need to take more elite units that won't need to be raised as much. However this is only valid 2000+ points.

 

[Skaramak von Carstein]

My use of the Banshee varies. It is useless vs armies that are immune to Psychology, and can have a hard time against some of the elite armies with high leadership.

I tend to run her behind the fighting line, singing into key units during the shooting phase (so before combat begins) with a view to taking a few models off the unit, and possible costing them a rank bonus if aimed well.

She can also shred heavy cavalry, as armour is no protection against her dulcet tones.

You need to be careful with her, however, as she can be targeted by magic spells and items.

 

[Rockchickjen]

Ah ok, lots of good things to consider and think about.

I guess it all depends on which armies I'm up against really as to whether I concentrate on magic or fighting.

And with the banshee, again whether I bring her in to it would depend on who I'm up against. If they have lots of good magic to fire at her, or are immune to psychology then not much point.

My friends chaos mortal army had lots of heavy cavalry in, one unit was very deadly but can't remember what they were called.
Very elite, the banshee may have been good for that.

Thanks again!
You are a lovely bunch