New to WHF, please help

[ewestphal]

I have acquired the following cheaply and am looking to build an 8th ed army around 2000-2500 points, suggestions for builds that require no additional purchase are favorable. I am planning to play a denial and swarm game or an alpha strike game.

I have:
corpse cart
black coach
isabella
vampire lord x5
vampire lord on zombie dragon
ghast
giant
4x spirit
1 cairn wraith
1 banshee
5 black knights
16 skeletons
20 zombies
6 dire wolves
6 ghouls
battalion (20 skeletons, 20 zombies, 10 ghouls, 1 corpse cart)

 

[Grish]

Giant's you can't currently use. Maybe zombify it up and use it as unit filler.

Cleaned up your post a bit to understand what you have a bit easier.

Isabella
5 Vampires
Vampire on Dragon

36 skeletons, 40 zombies, 17 ghouls
2 Corpse Carts
6 Dire Wolves

5 Black Knights
4 Spirit Host

Black Coach
1 Banshee, 1 Cairn Wraith

1 Giant (unit filler or sell it)

 

[Bishop]

As stated, you can't currently use a Giant.

Also, you would need a couple more Wraiths in order to be able to use those.

I'd suggest that you get some more Ghouls/Skeletons (your choice).

 

[ewestphal]

Thanks for the advice. too bad about the giant, it is a giant model carved up and based as though it were rising from the grave. As for skeletons vs. ghouls, what are the pros and cons each way (there is probably a thread about that someplace.)

 

[waaanial00]

Thanks for the advice. too bad about the giant, it is a giant model carved up and based as though it were rising from the grave. As for skeletons vs. ghouls, what are the pros and cons each way (there is probably a thread about that someplace.)

Recent Topic About Skele vs Ghoul

I suppose you could always place a vampire near to your Giant and claim its an Abysal Terror or Zombie Dragon. Though of course you would have to get a much bigger army to use it in.

 

[Dogmar]

What you have looks like a good start. I don't think you will need many additional characters, as you already have enough for most games. Maybe something you can use as a Wight King.

I agree on the topic of more core units, with your current stock you won't be able to play much above the 1500 bracket. Also I suggest to get some Grave Guard, they're our most reliable unit imo. In order to field a complete unit you'd need at least one more wraith. I suggest fielding them in a unit of 4+ without the banshee, but that's personal taste.

Hope this helps,

Dogmar

 

[ewestphal]

Just found out that my friend, whom I will play the bulk of my games against, is going tomb kings at 200 points or so. He has a catapult, bone giant, chriots and warriors, fairly light on archers. Any suggestions, does this change anything? Ideally, I'd like to build with what I've got rather than buying more if at all possible. Also, I do not intend to play in tournaments as the closest LGS is 70+ miles away and too much hassle to get to with my 18 month old son at home.

 

[ewestphal]

that should be 2000 points.

 

[waaanial00]

Given what you currently have available I dont see you making a 2000 point legal list. For starters you dont have enough core units, though of course you could always count your zombies as Ghouls and get over this problem.

In terms of building a legal army, with some substitution and "counts as" you could run the following

Vamp Lord
Vamp powers - Red Fury, Infinitie Hatred, Beguile
Items - Crown of Damned, Flayed Hauberk, Ogre Blade

Vamp hero
Vamp powers - Avatar of War, Infinite Hatred
Items - Sword of Might, Gem of Blood

Vamp hero
Vamp powers - Forbidden Lore
Items - Helm of Command

Vamp hero
BSB, Cadaverous Curiass, Sword of Attack

36 Skeleton Warriors
Full command

30 Ghouls (13 zombies used as Ghouls)
Ghast

Black Coach

5 Black Knights

2 Corpse Carts
Balefire

Without the book infront of me it comes to about 2000 points, is it brilliant? No. Is it legal? Assuming I have the points right then yes.

Your biggest problem is that you have loads of characters but few core and fewer decent special units. Still if you decide to go with the above I would do the following

Put your lord and BSB in the Skeleton unit
Put the other combat vampire in the Ghould unit
put the forbidden lore vampire within 3" of the other two units but dont attach.
Flank your core on both sides with the corpse carts
Keep your Black knights and Black Coach on a flank together

Concentrate on keeping your core alive through ION and Summon undead Horde if you are lucky enough to get it. Use your corpse carts to shadow the flanks of your troops. Get your lord into combat, his high strength plus crazy number of attacks will give you a real bite in combat.

 

[ewestphal]

Thanks for the help. I do appreciate it. I have managed to acquire 20 grave guard and an additional 20 ghouls as well as 10 more black knights and blood knights. Here's what I am thinking:

2000 points

CORE:
skeletons x20
musician
standard bearer
banner of the dead legions
198
skeletons x20
champion
standard bearer
banner of hellfire
186
ghouls x20
ghast
168
corpse cart
unholy lodestone (will magnetize, but since TK never miscast balefire seems a waste)
100

SPECIAL
grave guard x20
full command
banner of the barrows
315
Black knights x5
full command
icon of vengeance
barding
225
RARE
Black coach
200
LORDS
Vampire Lord
zombie dragon
avatar of death
495
HEROES
Necromancer
Vanhels
raise dead
nightmare
100

If my calculations and points are correct, 1999.
Strategy
coach and black knights are there to flank and attack war machines and casters, harrassing and distracting while skeletons advance to attack bulk of opposing army.
Skeletons take the first casualties, ghouls follow up to hit with poison
Grave guard follow as a cleanup crew
the lord casts for the first few turns, and powers up black coach, he is also fitted with the ZD and avatar of death to allow him to be a threat in combat once battle is joined (and to stay within the 25%).
Necromancer follows up with movement buff and repairs for the units.


Any help is appreciated. I am not looking for a tourney caliber list, but one that would be decent against all comers, especialy TK.

 

[waaanial00]

Have you looked at the FAQ? banner of the dead legions is now a defunct banner as its effects are completely without effect in 8th ed. Take the Warbanner instead, the +1 CR is a good thing on low combat prowess units.

The zombie dragon, whilst a cool model, is rather underwhelming. I would suggest that taking a lord on foot is a much better suggestion, but then again I already suggested that so I would say it

Hope you have fun, gotta say though you seem to have a nack at acquiring models.

 

[ewestphal]

Right place at the right time I guess. For everything I have listed, I am into the Counts for about $200, not too bad if I say so myself. Thanks for the tip on the FAQ. I have been reading through the army book and building from there, I guess the FAQ is the next step. Really need to get an 8ed ruklebook too. Too bad about the ZD. However, by dropping it, I would be able to kit out a combat lord and another necromancer/vamp thrall as casters more easily.

 

[ewestphal]

After returning to the drawing board, here's what I have (I've probably goofed something somewhere.

Lords:
Vampire Lord on Hellsteed
Red Fury
beguile
Infinitie Hatred
Flayed Hauberk
Wristbands of black gold
Sword of kings

Heroes:
Necromancer
Extra spell
Nightshroud
Scepter de Noirot
Necromancer
Extra spell
Wight King
BSB
Flag of blood Keep

Core:
Ghouls x20
ghast
Skeletons x14
FC
spears
icon of vengeance
Skeletons x13
FC
spears
Standard of hellish vigor
Corpse Cart

Special:
Grave Guard x10
standard
banner of the barrows

Rare:
Black Coach
Blood Knights x4
Kastellan

Strategy:
The lord is kitted to be a tank/hammer, likely being pitted against things like tomb princes, grail knights and minotaurs. The skeletons will be the front rank and engage first, ghouls folow on clean-up duty or where poison is best used. Meanwhile, BSB joins grave guard as secondary wave hammer while lord joins blood knights to flank, black coach on other flank necros raise zombies to annoy enemy, producing 13+2D3 if successful each turn. when IoN is needed, necros apply. Against TK, the hope for me is to get the Black coach into the backfield almost powered up and interfere with his magic while smashing warmachines and casters in a pincer with Blood knights leaving skeletons, ghouls and grave guard to clean up the middle.

Still have yet to play a game and still am waiting on my 8ed book.

 

[Grish]

The Flayed Hauberk wont' be much protection against Tomb Princes and Minotaurs. Both hit at S6 usually, which means you'll have only a 5+ Save with the Flayed Hauberk, as Armour Saves are modified by Strength.

Also, I wouldn't put your Lord on a Hellsteed, period. Only for special games. He is too vulnerable. A cannon could drop him in the first round; there is no where that he gets a Look Out Sir! roll. If you fight against Empire or Dwarves, both could have a pair of cannons firing at him. This is a tricky model to start with and I do not recommend it. Either make your lord Caster heavy or on foot combat heavy.

Beguile is best with Sword of Kings but I think it's a poor combination. Killing blow does not work against Minotaurs anyways. If you really want your Hellsteed, trade Beguile for Dread Knight, and just use the Lance. S7 is deadly. If you decide to ditch the Hellsteed, just put your Lord on foot.

A pair of Necromancers I'm not crazy about. The nightshroud is a waste of points for sure, as the only time it will come in handy is if the enemies attacking the necromancer ALL get killed. Otherwise they'll attack him anyways and likely kill him. A necromancer cannot survive combat against anything more than Zombies.

Icon of Vengeance is weak. I'd swap it for something else. If your lord dies, you've lost pretty much anyways.

Grave Guard unit is tiny; I would boost it if possible to 15+. Even 15 is a small unit at this level of points, but could work if you just use it as a hammer and not an anvil.

Kastellan upgrade isn't worth it tactically. It's expensive and only offers an additional attack. +1 attack for 20 pts, when you can get for 55 pts a extra model that has 4 attacks? Only worth it if you plan on challenging something.

If you have 20 Grave Guard, use 20 Grave Guard. They are frequently the stars of most lists.

But I suggest playing around with different units and seeing what you enjoy. Just because a choice isn't the best tactically isn't always a good reason not to do it. I love fielding blood knights personally, even if they aren't good for their cost.

 

[ewestphal]

Interesting comments Grish, here's the other list I was tinkering with:
Lords:
Lord
red fury
infinite hatred
avatar of death
wristbands of black gold

heroes:
Necromancer
+1 spell
scepter de noirot

vampire
dark acolyte
Lord of the dead
Tomb blade
Flayed hauberk

Wight King
BSB
Flag of Blood keep

Core:
Ghouls x20
ghast
Skeleton x14
FC
war banner
Skeleton x13
FC
standard of hellish vigor
corpse cart
lodestone
dire wolves x5

Special:
Grave Guard x20
FC
Banner of the barrows

Rare:
Black Coach


ALT BUILD: swap dire wolves and black coach out for 4 blood knights, add 2 skeletons or ghouls

Strategy, as above with the follwoing alterations:

1 skeleton unit bunkers the vampire thrall, the grave guard bunker the necromancer
coach and wolves flank
Lord travels with the ghouls and engages as opportunities present.

 

[Santawraith]

Though I am not the best at building armies I dont use many necromancers anymore as I would prefer a vampire who can do the same thing. That being said your necro isnt built bad and would work well for ya.

I personally would drop the wolves and go with more skeletons or ghouls or even as your alternative build of blood knights.

Sorry I can't add more but like I said I am not the best at army builds. Mine just barely changed from the list I used since sixth. I personally woulds suggest the more ghouls the better, as they are now better then skeletons. Though as of two months ago I would of argued the other side of that.

 

[Grish]

Ugh, just lost a giant comment thread I was writing. I'll sum up.

Read this:
https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Cant-leave-home-without
https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Hybrid-Lord-Builds

Decent information in there.

Lord
red fury
infinite hatred
avatar of death
wristbands of black gold
- Wristbands are only against ranged. If you're in a unit, and the same type of the unit, you basically can't be hit except for template weapons, where you get a Look Out Sir! roll which means you aren't hit on the roll of 2+. If you're going to be in combat, get some close combat protect. Crown of the Damned is good.
Avatar of Death won't provide much protection. Get rid of it.
Red Fury and Infinite Hatred benefit with something to help attack or wound. Pick up something to strengthen that.


heroes:
Necromancer
+1 spell
scepter de noirot
- OK, but I don't know what role your zombies will play

vampire
dark acolyte
Lord of the dead
Tomb blade
Flayed hauberk
- Tomb Blade is weak, and I don't think you need Dark Acolyte. You'll still have a +2 to cast with LotD and lvl1. I would start the magic phase by throwing 1 dice spammings of IoN. I'd swap DA for Infinite Hatred and pick up Sword of Might over Tomb Blade.

Wight King
BSB
Flag of Blood keep
- This is only good if the unit you're protecting will be shot anyways. If you throw this with the Grave Guard, they'll just shoot anohter unit. Sure, you'll save them, but your skeletons will be hit. If you just bought 75 pts worth or skeletons, that'd be a lot of shooting they'd have to endure to make up the cost of this banner.

Core:
Ghouls x20
ghast
- ok
Skeleton x14
FC
war banner
- ok

Skeleton x13
FC
standard of hellish vigor
- this unit will be able to march anywyas. This banner is used when you deploy a unit on the flank that will not have a vampire to support it, such as Black Knights potentially.

corpse cart
lodestone
- Ok, but read the threads on Corpse Carts.

dire wolves x5
- OK

Special:
Grave Guard x20
FC
Banner of the barrows
- good, but I'd really think about getting Great Weapons. Play them both ways and see what you prefer.

Rare:
Black Coach
- personally not a big fan, but lots of people are.

 

[ewestphal]

New thoughts toward building. I have a couple games in vs. TK, but from what I've heard that is something of a poor test lab for Vc as about half of what VC do is mitigated and the magic phase belongs to TK with no miscasts.

Being new to WHFB, I am still figuring out the rules a bit and I'm pretty sure my cousin cheated bringing 3x scorpions in 2000 pts.

Long story short:

I like the GG with great weapons and plan to include them, though I may make a magno force to go both ways as needed

skeletons are soft, but flame banner, forgot the real name, is fantastic vs. TK. his prince, liche priest and king stayed on the other sie of the field most of the game out of fear.

Casket of souls SUCKS, stupid George Lucas/Spielberg planting that idea in Gw gamer heads...

black coach did what I wanted it to, but took 3 turns to power up. I may cheesify things a bit and take some more caster heroes to ramp it up faster

ability to march vs. Tk is HUGE

tying up 5 ushabti with 30+ summoned zombies = priceless

2x scorpion in the face of vamp lord = major suck

Having a caster thrall eaten on his first attempt at a spell due to miscast = nearly as bad as scorpion-face

To mess with my opponent, I put the ZD on the table. The reaction was priceless, but the costs are to high for 2K

I took Grish's suggestions to the last list I posted. overall, I'm pleased with the performance, though I may sub in blood knights instead of the black coach to see how that goes. I have also acquired a unit of black knights and am thinking of a cavalry force.

 

[Grish]

Awesome, glad I could help.

Casket means you gotta play with your units close together, which is fairly easy for VC to do. Against other armies, it's terrible, so you probably wouldn't see it included at a tournament. Thats the problem sometimes; some items/abilities are devastating against certain armies, and just horrible against others. So you can get a skewed view.

Tomb Scorpions rock. You may want to take the anti-KB armour just for them.
Caster heroes won't help the Coach power up unless you give them MotBA.
If scorpions are rare choices, then he can only bring 2 of them in a 2k game.

I don't see how you fit a ZD in on a 2k game. Your lord would have to be <500 pts, so with the cost of the ZD and lord, that's 480pts. Means no powers just about.

Oh, and if you think its worth a Rep point, hit me up! Shameless plug. If you need more help, let me know.

 

[ewestphal]

+1 for the help Grish, I search, but the fu is weak, is this how the rep system works? As for the ZD, it was a bare bones lord, but he has a tendency to freak when big scary things come out of hiding and he was expecting a footslogger... It was for show, just a little psych tactic. I didn't actually use it.

 

[Grish]

There's a checkmark at the bottom of my post. You can just click that.

 

[ewestphal]

*facepalm* long day...