New To WHFB, having trouble choosing an army.

[Galacticz]

Hey guys,

I am planning on starting an army in the next few months but I am hard pressed making a choice. Its really coming down to Dark Elves, Dwarves, and Vampire Counts.

In all honesty, I like VC the best but i hear that our viable lists are severely restricted and 8th edition slapped us in the face because our book sucks. Is this true? If so, when will VC get a new book? Half of the allure to me with this army is the fact that it seems like it can be so versatile, but people make it seem like there are only one or two lists you can play to still stand a fighting chance of winning. I like to change up my lists, so conforming to a single list for the entire time I play an army is a big no-no.

Will you all inform me properly about VC?

Thanks!

 

[Tim]

IMHO just play the army you like the most, eventually you will develop tactics to win from any army. If you are the kind of player that can only enjoy a game when you win(or tourney go'r) you should pick the tier 1 army.
What I read from the tourney players is now you are kind of forced to use ghouls because skeletons are a bit costly, that might be the 2 lists you are talking about. The 8th ed. changed fear a lot, logically this impacts Vampire Counts and made some units less viable(skeletons).

 

[Sanai]

People who say that 8th made VC suck.... suck.
VC was one of the most overpowered armies in 7th, but when 8th came we became a more balanced army. Whenever an overpowered army or unit takes a hit, people whine and complain alot, but its best to take all the complaining with a grain of salt.

 

[Zhatan]

One of the things that attracted me to VC to begin with, apart from their awesome look, was their versatility. This was backwhen we still had different bloodlines to choose from.

Unfortunately it seems like those days are gone and the book we have now is not suited to play 8th edition. We can still make very powerful lists but they all tend to look very much alike. You can of course make fn varied lists but they will be far from optimal if you care about that.

We are currently more in line powerwise to the other armies of WFB so more balanced in that sense but the internal balance of the book is messed up and alot of our units are simply not worth taking if you start to do the math.

 

[Sanai]

It also depends on what kind of environment you play in. If its a casual, friendly gaming environment, you can pretty much do what you like with your list. If its a highly competitive environment (or a tournament) thats when things get restrictive.

 

[the underlord]

Speaking personally and with a whole lot of bias, I wouldn't take dwarves (though seeing a unit of stunties charge 11" into combat can be just plain hilarious with the new charge rules). Dark elves are a really cool army with their new units, though I haven't played a game either with or against them since 8th ed, so I really dont know how they would stack up now. VC are obviously my first choice, and can be really fun to play casually with a totally versatile list, though as everybody has been saying, it you want a competitive army for harcore play or tournaments you're really forced to take ghouls, a deathstar, and a bunker. It really comes down to the fundamental question: are you in it for the hobby or the game. If what really turns your crank is the look of a finished army, all kinds of dead things trudging across the field, and it really isnt paramount whether you win or loose, then who caresif your list is super competitive, build what looks cool and go from there

 

[Tim]

I could not agree more the underlord

 

[Bravo_10]

Personally, I think there are plenty of ways to win with VC. My Vampires haven't lost a game in over a month now, and I keep trying out new and fun lists. Perhaps my favorite thing about playing Vampire count is the sheer flexibility of the Vampire Lord. You can kit him out to do so many things: he can be an excellent sorcerer, a powerful close-combat face wrecker, or anything in between. It's especially enjoyable when you play without open lists, so your opponent has to guess at what your Lord will do to him once he gets into combat.

Overall, you should choose an army that you like the look/background of. If you're a fan of Undead, then the Vampires or Tomb Kings will be the army for you. And if you ever have trouble with tactics or list-building, just come visit me and my buddies in the To War section! We'll get you sorted out.

 

[akiro27]

VC are very competitive and can be really fun. They've got some great flavor and some impressive power. They also have some painful weaknesses, but that seems to be the case with most armies in various ways. We're super magic reliant, but we can do some things other armies can't.

VC have the added benefit of having a *fantastic* online presence. Carpe Noctem has a lot of people ready to help, advise, point out errors and just be on your team. People here freakin' love their VC and it shows. A lot of my friends who chose other armies (when we all got started) are pretty jealous of this place. I would definitely put that on the pros/cons list of any army you're considering: the online community.

Tactically speaking, it's been my experience that Warhammer is the biggest 'grass is always greener' game. No matter what army I play against, I can't believe they can do ___ while we can't. You just have to remember that's the case for everyone; it's a game of checks & balances. In that respect (army strengths and weaknesses) there's almost no wrong choice. It comes down to compromise and seeing which fit best for your play style: what can you live with and what can't you live without?

I definitely echo Bravo's statement: choose the army that you like the feel of the most. And hell ... you'll learn to like others. Don't tell anyone, but I'm going to pick up a box of Brets in a few days to see what they're like

-aki

 

[Jacques Dauger De Cavoye]

If you go to play with a bunch of very competitive list, then sure, you're going to be restricted to what you can play if you wanna match up against top tier players, but if you are looking for friendly matches and a little fun, then you can do a whole lot with VC. like skeletons? run lore of beasts and metal, make them bosses. Maybe you like a cavalry force? Blood knight death squad. Wanna play something different, run TG's and banshees with death magic and play a psychological game. Want zombies? Summon the undead horde. If you play it smart you can win most games no matter the list, sure you can't bulldoze everything that gets in your way, but you can win games, give it a try.

 

[Sanai]

It is alot of cerebral, tactical fun trying to achieve victory with a themed/fluffy non competetive list. Alot of the tourny style lists can feel like a case of "winning by army composition not tactics". It may be harder to achieve victory without a tourny style list, but god it feels good when you do pull it off. Take my guard list for example. It has no vets, no chimeras, no plasma, its pretty sub-optimal. It often gets stomped pretty badly, but its always alot of fun to play with those huge platoons of infantry, and it felt really good once when I came close to drawing against a powerful chaos list (one more turn and I would have taken out that daemon prince!)

 

[Galacticz]

WoW! You are right, I agree that a huge online presence is key to having a successful army. I really seem to be attracted to the magic side of armies, I love the ability to buff my weak little units into killing machines and then spawn more fodder to bog down my enemies whilst I pound into him with powerful units.

I just have a few questions. Can a VC list have two lords? Say one good at CC wreakage whilst the other is pro at Magic? Can Vamps take other lores of magic? I like Lore of Vampire, but Since I like versatility, I would like to be able to take other nasty lores of magic. How expensive is it to start a VC army? I assume the massive amounts of zombies one has to paint is a pain in the ass!

You guys are really closing in on the kill, keep flooding me with information and by the end of the day, you might have a new VC player on this forum!

 

[Tim]

I just have a few questions. Can a VC list have two lords? Say one good at CC wreakage whilst the other is pro at Magic? Can Vamps take other lores of magic? I like Lore of Vampire, but Since I like versatility, I would like to be able to take other nasty lores of magic. How expensive is it to start a VC army? I assume the massive amounts of zombies one has to paint is a pain in the ass!

You can have as many lords as points will allow, just need 1 general.
You can customize vampires in a way that it can be a strong in close combat or strong with magic or a hybrid. You can pick all lore except for Life at a point cost.
Zombies are usually not the core of the army, either go with ghouls or skeletons or a mix. You will most likely only deploy zombies in low points games or in a fluffy army list. Zombies are usually summoned with magic. Having around 20-60 handy for this reason alone is not wrong though.

 

[Galacticz]

So I am a little confused. With the coming of 8th edition, what is viable for a VC list? Now Im not necessarily talking what is the most powerful options, but I just want to know what are considered wastes of points. Skeletons really don't look that great for 8 points. I really like the models, but ghouls do look much better for the cost.

Also, the rule of thumb seems to be in 8th that core is the most important catagory with units; I have seem many a list being scorned because people were spending too much on characters. But in the case of VC's it seems that Lords and Heroes need to be beefed up alot. Is it highly encouraged to kit out our Lords and Heroes more so than other armies?

Another thing I noticed is that While not to terrific looking on paper, its seems that all our units cause fear. How powerful is fear in this game? Is it a huge advantage on our part?

 

[Mad 'At]

Well as already stated: Zombies are seldom, if ever, worth taking. Even worse are Bat Swarms. Dire wolves are mostly used as speed bumps and deployment drop but other than that are pretty useless.
Ghouls are generally considers better, and work great as hordes. Skeletons are often fielded merely as bunkers.

From what I have heard VC players who are really competitive always tries to get only just the minimum of core, because our core isn't that good. I don't really see it as that important, but then I have always liked big units (even in 7th which was just stupid).
VC dose benefit from beefed up characters more than other armies IMO, simply because our characters can help our units stay alive (and even crate new units) a lot better than other armies. So yes kit out your lords and heroes a lot.

Fear is the reason to why our troops are so expensive, in 7th fear were much better so the point costs were sane. Now all fear dose is force the enemy to take a Ld test at the star of every round or have their WS reduced to 1. And with generals inspiring presses and BSB close by that's not likely to happen. Though it can be useful out on then flanks where Ld characteristics tend to be lower.
So it's a nice little touch that with some luck can help you a lot but it's nothing to build tactics on, in fact it is so insignificant that most players (including myself) tend to forget it .

 

[Galacticz]

So when are vc's going to get an updated book? It sounds like its really needed. When is their book from?

 

[Sanai]

If you are going for a casual list, anything goes really, except zombies and abyssal terrors.
You will need some zombies, no matter your list, in case you want to cast raise dead or summon undead horde. But you don't need many (anywhere between 20-60 is a good number, depending on how casty your heroes/lords are, and how much you like to summon zombies)
Basically a casual list will often use skeletons as core, include things like necros, fell bats, black knights, corpse carts, zombie dragons, wraith units, etc.
A competitive list will use ghouls as core, almost always has a graveguard unit with banner of the barrows led by a wight king bsb with the drakenhoff banner, and will either have varghulfs, a black coach, a TG or blood knights. Blood Knights will often be led by a super killy vampire lord while grave guard will often have a caster lord supporting them either from within the unit itself, or from a skelly bunker using helm of command.
Personally I prefer casual lists, as it gives me the freedom to make my own tactics and composition rather than copying the ever popular ghoul/graveguad lists.

 

[Zhatan]

The problem with casual friendly lists is that only works if you know you are going to play a friend and even then alot of armies will crush you even if they don't go for their best lists. Sure if you don't care at all about winning then it doesn't matter at all what you pick.

I just find that a game where one side doesn't stand a chance is pretty boring.

 

[Aren]

Book sucks?!? now THAT is a slap in the face In my opinion were awesome! Ive just started VC and Im loving it, mainly because no matter what they kill, its got a chance of comming back to life and more often than not it does so. There is no other army that has lords/heroes so versitile and powerfull as ours (warriors of chaos may have a tad stronger combat heroes/lords, but they are not mages aswell) No other army gets to come back to life in the sheer numbers that we can ( Tomb Kings are a fail at comming back) and no one appart from us has a giant bat that can kill an arachnarok spider in one shot, without even getting into combat, finally, no one else has such an epic (and perverted) leader as us, DoN Go with VC and knock yourself out raising whole regiments of guys back from the dead.....Best army around (in my opinion)

 

[hairyjeff]

I don't play waac, so I find skeletons work fine if well supported. Black Knights are really good flank units, but swallow points, while Blood knights are awesome if you have 1200 points to spare for a fair size unit. Best advice I can give is pick the army you enjoy, and learn to play it. Winning isn't the ultimate prize- enjoyment is.

 

[Sanai]

1200 pts on blood knights? Personally Under 4k pts i'd only field them in units of 5 or 6.

 

[Sception]

Some of the points values and special rules for some of our units are out of wack due to edition change, but the books still largely functional, unlike, say, wood elves. Truly competitive lists in a tournament sense do seem to be fairly restricted - big block grave guard with BSB flanked by two ghoul hordes, skelly bunker in the back with caster lord, rares and other heroes to taste (at least you get some variety there, as all the rares and heroes are good, including the new ones we picked up in the last white dwarf).

However, the only really useless unit is bat swarms. Every other unit is good enough to field in a more casual, local setting game, including the special characters if you like them (excepting maybe izzy, but at her cheap points cost she can probably be excused in a fluff list). So if you're playing mostly friendly local games, there's plenty of variety and the book works tolerably given that it was written for another edition. Honestly, when we get a new book some of the less functional things and odd points values will be fixed, but the overall power of the book, at least on the more competitive end, will probably go down, rather then up, if it follows trends from other recent books.

All in all, vamps are a good, fun, cool army, and if they're what you like, then play them. They're not likely to get a new book anytime soon, but that's fine because while the edition change was... awkward for vamps, it didn't take them behind the wood shed to put a bullet in their heads like it did to some other armies (again, wood elves), and as such those books really do need updates sooner.

And we did get some new options recently, which is cool. Never mind that they were for rares and heroes, where we already had a variety of functional options, and not for some better core troops, where we're currently hurting fur choice.....

 

[Aren]

Agree with you completely Malisteen though it depends on against what you are playing against, because against ogeres you only really need a vamp lord with infinate hatered, red fury and frost blade, average of 3 wounds, so 3 dead and because ogeres have 3 wounds each then red fury gives you 9 attacks more to make, killing 7 on average, so essentially you have killed 10 ogeres which would be 30 points of combat res to you and I dont know of any regiment of ogeres that could survive that. So against them you take the lord and basicly whatever you feel lik

 

[hairyjeff]

Sanai- yes! twenty Blood Knights, FC. Joined by a Lord on barded nightmare,infinite hatred and red fury. only did it in one game, 7 x 3 formation, vanhels into combat on the first turn, they were ridiculously overwhelming. Only thing that hurt them was Grimgor in a unit of 52 black orcs. 8000 point game, I had to use skaven as extra skeletons and zombies and longbeards as extra grave guard. My son didn't use all his O&G army, and we needed a 12 x 6 board. Took over a week of evenings to play, back in 7th edition days. We'll do it again over xmas holiday, but against HE not O&G. and yes, I won.just.

 

[Sanai]

8k pts? Musta been an impressive game, and the fact they even survived against grimgor and 52 black orcs is pretty amazing,