New woodies

[Zhatan]

They are inferior to Swordmasters in all respects. But yes, they can put a big hurt on our Crypt Horrors. You won't see them too often in all comer lists but if you are playing a friend and he knows you are bringing the Vamps then they are a good choice.

They are a few points cheaper, in fact one of the cheapest units in the book, and if I recall correctly(I might be wrong here) and they are I6 they will strike before SM. Also in woods they get the murderous prowess so thats something.
But yes in most cases SM are better.

 

[Blutsauger]

They'll definitely be 20 strong since they can reliably shoot in 3 ranks from a forest, and they hit on rerollable 3s.
Also, if they kill only 7 wolves they'll crumble the rest on CR that turn.

And 10 wolves is a big unit to be running them in.

In my experience, you often waste a lot of shots when you go 20 strong. You can get just as many shots on target with 2 x 10 strong units, the only difference being that if you get charged you can stand and shoot with 20 models in stead of 10. The other consideration being that you will then lose 20 models in combat, instead of 10.

I frequently see ranged units of 10, and I don't expect martial prowess to change that.

Further, I always run a mix of 10 and 5 strong units of wolves. I think 10 is a pretty normal number.

 

[Ripper]

They just got their new book, let them have their moment in the sun.

 

[Seneschal]

Rangers are Initiative 5, not 6.

 

[LordTobiothan]

As a previous wood elf player I can tell you the big weakness of the last book and the new one.

His units are EXPENSIVE. The glade guard run at about 15-17 points a piece in the new book and that is about as cheap as anything gets. If you want to beat woodies every time you take a good hunting unit to find small things it can kill and you raise the living hell out of your troops.

Basically as long as your characters don't fall and you kill one of his units, he cant beat you for points. Seems like an odd way to win, but the wood elves rely on killing something and running away. any combat past 2 turns hurts them.

Also ghouls, lots of ghouls. They are all toughness 3 with no armor. Poison is fantastic.

 

[Demian]

Also, I've noticed that they retain their "Elven rules" only while inside a forest. That would mean that they must "take cover" from forest to forest in order to maximize their combat and shooting rules.

I'd believe a normal game would go like:

- Shoot
+ Advance
- Shoot
+ Advance
- Shoot
+ Charge! - Stand & Shoot
- Combat against a weakened foe
...

There is little we can do to stop the shooting (short of covers, movement, etc) however, once we get up close, we must still fight inside their turf, with the forest of their choosing.

- I have a question here: do regular Wood Elf troops fighting inside a forest lose Steadfast? Or is there a rule of theirs allowing them advantage while not losing this feature from their combat formation?

(I know Skirmishers "become" Stubborn while inside a forest, but non-skirmisher Wood Elves are.. what?)


I suppose the thing here is, as always, maneouver so you can flank them. "Martial Prowess" does not work on the flank or rear, and we have Vargheists who can take some punishment and still deal deadly blows. I only worry about Ethereals, but:

Spirit Hosts are skirmishers due to their Swarm special rule, so that's -1 to Hit against them. They can also take cover behind Wolves and charge some archers when up close. Now, magical arrows count for nothing in close combat.

Sadly, Cairn Wraiths are no longer skirmishers and will die due to poor T. They should've been T4 at least, being all ghost kick-ass.

Varghulf has some advantage here, I suppose: T5. Even against a lot of arrows, that's hard to wound and he has another Regen save.

However, if we speak of small units... I'd take Black Coach any day! No cannons / Bolt Throwers? Then he's golden!

Just some toughts

 

[Atrophus]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure they lose steadfast as usual inside a wood.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Also, I've noticed that they retain their "Elven rules" only while inside a forest. That would mean that they must "take cover" from forest to forest in order to maximize their combat and shooting rules.

I'd believe a normal game would go like:

- Shoot
+ Advance
- Shoot
+ Advance
- Shoot
+ Charge! - Stand & Shoot
- Combat against a weakened foe
...

There is little we can do to stop the shooting (short of covers, movement, etc) however, once we get up close, we must still fight inside their turf, with the forest of their choosing.

- I have a question here: do regular Wood Elf troops fighting inside a forest lose Steadfast? Or is there a rule of theirs allowing them advantage while not losing this feature from their combat formation?

(I know Skirmishers "become" Stubborn while inside a forest, but non-skirmisher Wood Elves are.. what?)


I suppose the thing here is, as always, maneouver so you can flank them. "Martial Prowess" does not work on the flank or rear, and we have Vargheists who can take some punishment and still deal deadly blows. I only worry about Ethereals, but:

Spirit Hosts are skirmishers due to their Swarm special rule, so that's -1 to Hit against them. They can also take cover behind Wolves and charge some archers when up close. Now, magical arrows count for nothing in close combat.

Sadly, Cairn Wraiths are no longer skirmishers and will die due to poor T. They should've been T4 at least, being all ghost kick-ass.

Varghulf has some advantage here, I suppose: T5. Even against a lot of arrows, that's hard to wound and he has another Regen save.

However, if we speak of small units... I'd take Black Coach any day! No cannons / Bolt Throwers? Then he's golden!

Just some toughts

Your about right here really. and the black coach is a great bring vs woodies. Basically anything with high T or high armor, and has something that makes it more likely to hit are the bane of wood elves.

All those shots don't mean much when they wound on 5's at the best of times. Ghouls have poison to combat their high WS and black coach get auto hits on impact and basically all of the impact hits will kill something.

Now that I think about it Hexwraiths are a fantastic idea. They don't care about dangerous terrain they are fast and you can just run through the elves (and out of their shooting arc) and basically kill with every free hit. A unit of ten hexwraiths runs through a Glade Guard unit and that is 9-10 dead glade guard.

 

[RarerMonsters]

Your about right here really. and the black coach is a great bring vs woodies. Basically anything with high T or high armor, and has something that makes it more likely to hit are the bane of wood elves.

All those shots don't mean much when they wound on 5's at the best of times. Ghouls have poison to combat their high WS and black coach get auto hits on impact and basically all of the impact hits will kill something.

Now that I think about it Hexwraiths are a fantastic idea. They don't care about dangerous terrain they are fast and you can just run through the elves (and out of their shooting arc) and basically kill with every free hit. A unit of ten hexwraiths runs through a Glade Guard unit and that is 9-10 dead glade guard.

Except that Glade Guard have magical shots. And one hero will pull out Hail of Doom when he needs to wipe a unit of them off the table.

The BC is definitely a good option, but will be vulnerable to being charged by their fast cav, since it is awful in combat if it doesn't get its charges off and Wild Riders can wreck it up close and personal.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Except that Glade Guard have magical shots. And one hero will pull out Hail of Doom when he needs to wipe a unit of them off the table.

The BC is definitely a good option, but will be vulnerable to being charged by their fast cav, since it is awful in combat if it doesn't get its charges off and Wild Riders can wreck it up close and personal.

Magic shots, hail of doom arrow, all great and all, but still only strength 3, your black coach is unlikely to die to the both of them combined, and I doubt will be the priority target.

Wild riders are easy to control with a unit of wolves, and can be redirected into a unit of zombies. This is where our strength in redirecting and tar pitting really shines, since that is really the only unit wood elves have that does any real combat damage. Tree-kin and Tree-men just get hunted down by anything with flaming, so those aforementioned hex wraiths, a unit with the flame banner, or a suitably diced up coach don't care much about their strength and toughness.

The real trouble units to watch out for are way watchers and war hawk riders.

 

[Seneschal]

High T won't help much against a slew of poisoned shots from Glade Guard, Scouts and ambushing fast cav.
Armor won't help when the majority of Wood Elf players will be fielding 2 units of 10 waywatchers. Being able to skirmish, march and shoot with just a -1 penalty and BS 5 will make quick work out of knights or the coach.
I did think about using the coach originally but after reading a few bat reps on the wood elf forum I see how devastating their new guerilla game is.
Crypt Horrors will be more important than ever to us with their numbers and ability to be raised back easily.

 

[Vortaine]

Except that Glade Guard have magical shots. And one hero will pull out Hail of Doom when he needs to wipe a unit of them off the table.

The BC is definitely a good option, but will be vulnerable to being charged by their fast cav, since it is awful in combat if it doesn't get its charges off and Wild Riders can wreck it up close and personal.

Magic shots, hail of doom arrow, all great and all, but still only strength 3, your black coach is unlikely to die to the both of them combined, and I doubt will be the priority target.

Wild riders are easy to control with a unit of wolves, and can be redirected into a unit of zombies. This is where our strength in redirecting and tar pitting really shines, since that is really the only unit wood elves have that does any real combat damage. Tree-kin and Tree-men just get hunted down by anything with flaming, so those aforementioned hex wraiths, a unit with the flame banner, or a suitably diced up coach don't care much about their strength and toughness.

The real trouble units to watch out for are way watchers and war hawk riders.

Wild riders are m9 fast cav. Imo you'll have trouble redirecting them or keeping them from what they want to hit even if they are frenzied.

Anything ethereal will have a tough time vs woodies. Their core can get magical arrows, the most notable being poisoned, no modifiers, and -3 armor (though there are 6 in total). Expect to see a lot of these.

Wardancers are solid. The fact that they have asf note makes em a lot scarier for our characters if they do the armor piercing killing blow dance. Hell, the 3++ dance is a solid tarpit for some of our options.

The biggest issue with them will be how many forests are on the table. We tend to play with a few around here, but if there aren't enough they lose a lot (since they get both he and racials in the forests) which may make that acorn a better buy if the meta shifts away. If I had to buy it it'd be on a HE lore for the attribute.

 

[RarerMonsters]

The acorn will be common, and frankly it's not as big a risk as people say. A WE player never wants a lord in combat anyway. A spellweaver with sisters on an elven steed can just persistently avoid combat while he takes advantage of the forests.

 

[Demian]

I... don't think I follow here.

Poisoned Arrows don't cancel Armour saves, they are two different kind of special equipment they can take so... they either take out all or -3 armour and wound on 6's or get Poisoned arrows that are saved with 3+/4++

The Black Coach's achilles heel is ranked units. Those guys are skirmishers, they only get CR from wounds... they cannot make due to the overall resilience of the coach.

True, fast cavalry will get to it, yet again, wounding the coach is very different. I think it's solid, but until I have a game against them I'll write with more restraint.

Wardancers are a distraction. Just like the Phoenix Guard. There is no point in seeking to engage a unit that can take all the punishment a V. Lord has to offer and not die, but also not kill him (they either go all Ward or KB).

I'd throw a Varghulf at them, but again, I've not tested this.

Last, our forgotten Blood Knights have much more to offer here than our other rares (excluding the Coach). they have an almost guaranteed save against that many shooting attacks, and... hell, let's go nuts here and field 10! Who cares!

 

[robtion]

What do you think about Blood knights with their banner. High armour save vs all but poison and way watchers but also a 4+ ward vs all ranged attacks may help them survive?

Also VDM seems particularly useful vs WE to move our units up quickly and also to negate their ASF.

 

[Seneschal]

Demian, check my post again, I said poison arrows will help against high Toughness and waywatchers can deal with high armor so regardless of what shoots at the coach, with enough shots (and there will be plenty of those) the coach will fall.
Try the coach out though, I actually first considered it before anything else in our book to deal with them but after having seen how evasive the new WE are, I don't think the coach will last not being able to march and with only 4 wounds. Just my personal thoughts on the matter, so give it a whirl. I only make all comers lists so mine will be collecting dust for the foreseeable future.
On fielding 10 Blood Knights, I'd be verrry careful of that as a 4+ ward is going to fail half the time and those waywatchers will make the knights' steep cost hurt you before Turn 2 is over.

 

[Vortaine]

I... don't think I follow here.

Poisoned Arrows don't cancel Armour saves, they are two different kind of special equipment they can take so... they either take out all or -3 armour and wound on 6's or get Poisoned arrows that are saved with 3+/4++

The Black Coach's achilles heel is ranked units. Those guys are skirmishers, they only get CR from wounds... they cannot make due to the overall resilience of the coach.

True, fast cavalry will get to it, yet again, wounding the coach is very different. I think it's solid, but until I have a game against them I'll write with more restraint.

Wardancers are a distraction. Just like the Phoenix Guard. There is no point in seeking to engage a unit that can take all the punishment a V. Lord has to offer and not die, but also not kill him (they either go all Ward or KB).

I'd throw a Varghulf at them, but again, I've not tested this.

Last, our forgotten Blood Knights have much more to offer here than our other rares (excluding the Coach). they have an almost guaranteed save against that many shooting attacks, and... hell, let's go nuts here and field 10! Who cares!

So your saying that our best options here are the worst in our book? I usually try and pretend I don't know what I'm facing and bring all-comers lists, so breaking out the blood knight knights or the coach is... unpalatable.

I love the vargulf but if you think he 'll live against 30" mass- poison fire, I think you are mistaken.

And hardly anything in the book is skirmishes anymore. Dryads don't. None of the core do. So your answer to waywatchers is a black coach? Or slam it into the steadfast eternal guard?

Don't forget they have magic, too, and it's better than ours. +1 to cast any lore in a forest and access to shadow. Not saying our magic isn't there as well, but rerolling wounds vs t3 light armored modes isn't the same as pit or -d3 toughness on that precious coach.

 

[Yorga]

The acorn will be common, and frankly it's not as big a risk as people say. A WE player never wants a lord in combat anyway. A spellweaver with sisters on an elven steed can just persistently avoid combat while he takes advantage of the forests.

I'll bet you 500 zombies that you won't see any Acorns in the Masters' list. UK or USA. Both of my Wood Elf buddies read the rule for it and burst out laughing saying, "Yeah...won't be using that."

 

[Seneschal]

Scroll down to the 6th post. This gentleman is a veteran of all three elf armies and a very solid player. There are about four or five bat reps so far in that thread with the new book using the Acorn.

http://asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26264&start=50

Maybe we won't see it run in future lists, personally I feel that it will be more important in EG/WWR armies as they need the forests much more than a guerilla army does (for dual prowess).

 

[Demian]

Ok ok, one thing at a time, hehe:

Yep, Poison vs High Toughness: We rule out Terrorgheists

Add Flaming attacks to said poison: We rule out both TG and Mortis Engines, and add Varghulf here

Ignoring Armour saves: We rule out Knights (although with Str 3, they'll be wounding on 5's.. yet it's still doable).

Black Coach has both High T and Armour + Ward. Now, most things will hit it with... what 3+? So, if that is the case (and let's pretend we didn't use any kind of cover for our coach... as opposed as we should have) then, hitting the coach is cake. Wounding it is... another matter, since they don't re-roll any To Wound roll. Now, the coach has a Ward.

Additionally, you may get some Evocation of Death powers and... if that car gets Flaming attacks and manages to survive, the rest is easy against flamable elves (although I'm not sure if their characters can field any fire protection, but I assume they can) Dryads will suffer for this. If it gets Ethereal, its gg.

That being said, it will eat some arrows. A lot actually, but I don't think it'll die. And if it does, how many units must shoot at it? If they spend even 1 turn in shooting, our units just moved 8'' More if we brought Vargheists. But let's not overplay our hand.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the use of the Coach. No, he does not get slammed into infantry blocks, but against units which rely on their high combat prowess to progress and therefore, are expensive as hell to field in mass numbers. So M8 may not be great, but it gets to maneouver as much as it wants with it's infinite reforms (Single model) and will get to charge by turn 3 or less if it's hunting Cavalry. If the Coach survives the charge (BSB mandatory here, since it's so damn hard to wound with non-characters), then it has a unit tied up, it just needs a little support or just some average dice rolls to slowly eating them (damn the coach wounds slowly...). The trick here is it's Toughness value of 6, then it's ward.

Flaming Poisoned attacks is mandatory for an army such as that, which can benefit from very accurate arrows with special effects + flaming. That is an advantage. If that is so... why not always bring a Dragonhelm/dragonbane gem character on horse, just to hunt em down? And we do tend to field helms / gems. hell SGK goes there, no questions asked.

But anyways, lets move on to Blood Knights:

Sure, their cost is high and a single fallen knight is very hard to ressurrect (but never imposible for VC). They'll get a 2+ AS which will be reduced to nothing with special arrows, but need to be wounded on 5's, and get a Ward. Not very cost effective, I know.

However, since we'll be fielding them as such.. why not protect said... well, deathstar, with as much chaff as we can find? The trick here is using the Knights as cover, for any Hellsteed Vampires we may have. If we get chaff-blocked, the Vampire can fly and take care of any shooting problem on his own.

That's how I'd field them at least.


Vargheists, are the simplest choice, and by that I mean... well, field a damn Vargheist horde and spend no points in rares!

Crypt Horrors could suffer from the same anti-undead tailoring lists: Flaming Poisoned attacks.

Another thing I can think of is: Ethereal characters, hiding in bunkers long enough to get into close combat. Also, Sword and Shield Grave Guard is... not that bad here. At least to munch elven infantry.

 

[countwuzzy]

So the new arrow upgrades, do they give the unit magical attacks? Would bringing vanguard hex wraiths be worthless?

 

[Bounce]

When facing elite unarmoured archers i would suggest Zombie units led by vamps. Then sure they may kill ten or twenty models a turn but you can just bring them back and when you hit combat your vamps will rip the archers apart. i would also suggest big units of dire wolves and vargheists.

 

[Melle]

So the new arrow upgrades, do they give the unit magical attacks? Would bringing vanguard hex wraiths be worthless?

yup arrow upgrades counts as magical

 

[Yorga]

Scroll down to the 6th post. This gentleman is a veteran of all three elf armies and a very solid player. There are about four or five bat reps so far in that thread with the new book using the Acorn.

http://asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=26264&start=50

Maybe we won't see it run in future lists, personally I feel that it will be more important in EG/WWR armies as they need the forests much more than a guerilla army does (for dual prowess).

Well of course. He isn't using the item according to the rules. You generate and place the forests prior to deployment. Choosing table sides in done DURING deployment per the basic rule book. So those woods could have been on his opponent's side. But from his wording it appears he generated the woods and placed them AFTER he already selected a side. If the Acorn actually worked like that then my friends agree it would be a nice item. But it doesn't. Your opponent can easily end up selecting the side with the most forests and deprive you of your advantage. THAT and that alone is why the Acorn won't be used by the competitive players.

Too much randomness for 100 points. First you only get between 1-3 extra woods. Then they can scatter and THEN you could lose the dice roll for choosing sides and consequently lose the most heavily wooded area.

 

[Knockroe]

Dogs have no place against WE and really don't against most shooting armies unless you hide them behind a unit and not Vanguard.

I tried a couple of things against WE.

Blender lord on nightmare attached to 40 ghouls with infantry Necros in unit.

6 horrors

3 units of 5 Black knights.

3 units of 20+ zombies

a couple units of fell bats.

and a few points left over in 2400

A great tactic to watch out for is his Wild riders and their frenzy. Set up a charge op for his riders on bats etc....run them through with a unit of BK on the flank or rear. His archers will whittle away the ghouls except for Invoc which brings the lord closer to combat.
If you charge the lord out to take a unit make sure it's against troops that can't flee like Wild riders and all his archers will be hitting on 2-3 but wounding on 6's with your armour save of 2+ and ward save of 4+