New woodies

[RarerMonsters]

9 Forests on the table? Well there you go, a shooting army is going to have lots of trouble when the majority of the board is in cover!

We can figure out options that will give us good tools against Wood Elves, but BKs aren't it. Their entire army has armor piercing at the least, Wild Riders can crush BKs on a charge, BKs don't bring enough combat punch to crumble Elves fast, which you need to do.

 

[heldantes]

I'm a fanboy of the Black Knights, and Tagakoner gave a good summary of their main strengths.

I would also add that 1) black knights are going to get into combat quickly, and once that's happened shooting threats become less of a problem 2) @RarerMonsters, the BKs won't give much combat punch, but the Vampire Lord that should be with them will. Of course if you want to keep their ethereal then even 2-3 Wight Kings can bring a decent payload.

 

[Demian]

I had a question about how would Wild Riders run over Black Knights on the charge...

then I got to realize that:

- Devastating Charge + Frenzy = 3 attacks per dude... nasty.
- Asrai Spear = str 4+1 attacks with armour piercing... so, -3 armour. Also nasty.

Those are a whole lot of attacks, and they certainly have the means to charge our cavalry =(

What to do?

Well, I've come up with a couple of things to consider:

1. Nightshroud against elves. Always! be it on a V. Lord or a Wight King on guard duty. Lords and Heroes? no problem, nighsthroud ensures our V. Lord strikes first.

2. Cav vs Cav is always a matter of who charged who, as a general rule. Now, they are fast cavalry, which means they will out-perform our maneouvers to get them in charge range & distance. Usually, I'd use Dire Wolves to block their pace and slow them down, but that'll only work for a turn against them, while they circumvent the furry obstacle and let their archers finish them.

...the thing here is: Wild Riders cannot stand against a Vampire Lord (with Nightshroud, nearby at least). Given their WS, low armour and only a 6++, there should be -4 to -7 riders left by the time they get to strike. Those riders should not try to engage your BK. They'll go after the soft things, like... all our core.

3. If you advance as in chess (all units advancing while getting cover from other units, at least close combat-wise) you can deny a flanking maneouver. Then, as Wild Riders are frenzied, if they destroy a small 20 zombie bunker, they'll be left vulnerable for a counter charge. Just make sure you advance and provide cover. I have the idea that Hexwraiths can sit behind all of our lines, attempting to catch overreaching cavalry units, such as them. give it a try, and let us know!

 

[RarerMonsters]

I had a question about how would Wild Riders run over Black Knights on the charge...

then I got to realize that:

- Devastating Charge + Frenzy = 3 attacks per dude... nasty.
- Asrai Spear = str 4+1 attacks with armour piercing... so, -3 armour. Also nasty.

Those are a whole lot of attacks, and they certainly have the means to charge our cavalry =(

What to do?

Well, I've come up with a couple of things to consider:

1. Nightshroud against elves. Always! be it on a V. Lord or a Wight King on guard duty. Lords and Heroes? no problem, nighsthroud ensures our V. Lord strikes first.

2. Cav vs Cav is always a matter of who charged who, as a general rule. Now, they are fast cavalry, which means they will out-perform our maneouvers to get them in charge range & distance. Usually, I'd use Dire Wolves to block their pace and slow them down, but that'll only work for a turn against them, while they circumvent the furry obstacle and let their archers finish them.

...the thing here is: Wild Riders cannot stand against a Vampire Lord (with Nightshroud, nearby at least). Given their WS, low armour and only a 6++, there should be -4 to -7 riders left by the time they get to strike. Those riders should not try to engage your BK. They'll go after the soft things, like... all our core.

3. If you advance as in chess (all units advancing while getting cover from other units, at least close combat-wise) you can deny a flanking maneouver. Then, as Wild Riders are frenzied, if they destroy a small 20 zombie bunker, they'll be left vulnerable for a counter charge. Just make sure you advance and provide cover. I have the idea that Hexwraiths can sit behind all of our lines, attempting to catch overreaching cavalry units, such as them. give it a try, and let us know!

Hexwraiths will be dead turn 1 against WE. They have near limitless access to magical arrows.

A VL with Nightshroud (if you're planning on pre-building) will do great against wild riders, but don't expect to get them in combat or redirect Unfortunately, being fast cav with amazing speed, they'll get to dictate the combat they want and keep them off your back as long as possible. If you have a TG, they're a priority target.

 

[Gutrip]

I think that VC might need to do some sort of pre-building in order to survive against the WE. Honestly, having played against WE I can't stress enough on how devastating their shooting phase against us. My opponent frequently brings about 4 waystalkers every game, and happily snipes my wizards away. Armored Vampires get killed hard even with 4+ wards. A unit of 30 glade guard and multiple heroes reduced my horde of 50 ghouls down to around.. 20 ghouls in just 1 shooting phase. 68 shots.. with re-rolls. If our units get into combat, which is what we're supposed to be doing ASAP, WE always strike first with re-rolls and will kill plenty more before we even get to strike back. Only one doing damage will be your VL. Honestly, I'm having a really hard time trying to deal with an opponent who fields that 30 man unit of Glade Guard/w Heroes. It just rips apart anything it aims at.

Mind you, both times I've played them was in 2v2 games. I don't know if those count really, because I was really facing WE and empire with their many cannons. And both times I was tabled. I don't think anyone wants to partner me again. !

From my current experience against WE, and the lists I was using, here is what changes I might do next time I will face them. If I want to get into combat with at least half my army left.

• Corpse Cart for my Ghouls, to at least cancel out the WE ASF.

• Not taking squishy Necros. Snipers blow their skulls apart.

• Not taking Vargheists, they get shot too easily and in combat they lose to WE ASF. Taking more Crypt Horrors.

• Twin Towers, 1 isn't enough.

• More Black Knights, 10 isn't enough. Might expand to 15 to survive getting into combat. LV4 VL here (I need to find a way to use them.)

• Maybe find a way to start casting Lore of the Beasts? With the volume of arrows WE can dish out, wound on 5's seem way more frequent than 6's.. Maybe not, our Generals/Heroes will all need LoV, because our characters have a high death rate against WE snipers.

• Start praying to dice gods for double box cars when you're casting Curse of Years on a 30 man unit of Glade Guard ! Yes, you will miscast, but VERY much worth it.

• Best armour/ward saves on all my LoV wizards. Trust me when I say that they are going to snipe all your casters away. Protect your wizards!

• Keep all my units together to stay in Invocation range, even my black knights until I get into decent charge range. If you rush them out ahead of the army "to get the VL in combat asap", It's going to get shot apart.

I like to play fair and don't like pre-building lists to fight a specific army, but WE are pretty much built to pick VC apart. Everything in their arsenal seems like it was designed to destroy VC, flaming/poison enchants. Snipers to snipe our casters where they stand. I don't want to follow other 'recommended' lists of fielding zombie hordes in order to take on WE, that's just too much work to be doing just to put up a decent fight. But I don't want to also tailor my list to effectively combat WE, like using a corpse cart and my opponent saying I specifically took the corpse cart to cancel out elves ASF. But it feels like we have to in order to even stand a chance in close combat.

 

[E-Dog]

Hi all, long time luker. Playing WE this week and was thinking about taking a hero level vamp on coven throne. What do you guys think?

 

[thekinginyellow]

A unit of 30 glade guard and multiple heroes reduced my horde of 50 ghouls down to around.. 20 ghouls in just 1 shooting phase. 68 shots.. with re-rolls.

This doesn't make sense... At best, 30 Glade Guard get 60 shots with the multiple shot arrows, but there is *no way* for them to have any sort of re-rolls during the shooting phase.

I think the only re-rollable shooting comes from the twin sisters on eagle.

 

[Mr. West]

Well, Harmonic Convergence comes to mind, but that'd be only those pesky 'ones' that'd get re-rolled. Still a re-roll though, and a unit of 30 GG firing 60 shots would sure be a sweet target for that spell.

Anyways, WE are one of the toughest match-ups right now, but far from unbeatable. It's just that they're boss at the avoidance and points denial game and can mess with your movement phase like no one else can.

 

[Skittelz1981]

Hi all, long time luker. Playing WE this week and was thinking about taking a hero level vamp on coven throne. What do you guys think?

Sounds like a big gamble to me. I know it has some defence against shooting but WE is a very shooty army with high leadership.... i dont think Batlle of Wills will offer that much protection... and youre likely to be redirected all the time and get flee reactions on your charges.
I wouldnt get that into a WE tailored list, actually i wouldnt take the Coven Throne in any tailored list against any of the Elven races, besides the point that i wouldnt take the Coven Throne at all unless its abit of a fun list or high points game. (ive never taken it at all, i guess that says enough about my expectations of it and the overall use i see in it. Everytime i create a list including it i find it expensive and view other options to be better pointswise.)

 

[RarerMonsters]

The Coven Throne is not good against Wood Elves.

You can for items take Enchanted Shield/Dawnstone, and Lore of Shadow for a Miasma hit it'll give you a rerollable 3+ against most woodie shots.

Waywatchers will smash your face, but you can probably in combat by turn two and Impact hits are a good way to handle Elves. Back it up with Grave guard, and use the draw of WW shots to let the GG reach the backfield.

 

[Demian]

Apologies, but... Waywatchers are... Rare, right?

So, that means there is a max of 2 units per army, right?

Do they have a rule that can override this maximum?

Don't remember if I read it here or elsewhere, about someone facing 4 units of these guys D:

Anyways one Waywatcher is almost as expensive as a Black Knight.

 

[Seneschal]

Waywatchers are rare, yes. They cost the same price as 2 ghouls and are max 10 per unit. There is also a Waywatcher hero with the sniper rule but his shots are limited to the number of attacks he has, which is 1, unless he takes bow of loren which will give him more.
Someone may have gotten confused with the scout units WE players can take, which are also skirmishers (but do not have the armor ignoring ability of WW's).

 

[Demian]

I agree, having 2 units of 10+ Waywatchers (I don't think Units have maximum size in 8th, or do they?) is like us having 2x Terrorgheists. They solve every Elven problem, which is high armour saves (due to their low str).

But we shouldn't be afraid to face them with a standard (not-tailored) list. We can even form a zombie unit 20x2 and have them march forward every turn, until the gap is close enough. Hard cover + skirmishers (Vargheists or Spirit Hosts) also comes to mind.

I understand snipers make our necromancers cry, but that shouldn't be an issue to our Vampires/Wight King, specially to our VL. Necros can hide behind the main line, there is no LoS there or at least it shouldn't.


Knowing which units have Immune to Psychology does help a lot, since they can't flee from our charges, like most armies with high M, High Ld and lots of skirmishers will do. Our shooting is limited to... Howls and Shrieks =(

Also, forests play a double role here. It gives them their precious Forest Stalker rule, but also provides with light cover.

If I had any advice for playing against this army is... not to play as we would against conventional oponents. Wood Elves will have the advantage the entire game but in the key moments. Sacrifice Units, allow some advantages and take proper position. Sure it'll hurt a lot to loose the Black Coach / Terrorgheist to shooting alone, but you must anticipate loss in order to stand proper ground. Then send in the vampires and turn the tide. Zombies, zombies, zombies!!

Lore of Vampires here, all the way:

Invocation of Nehek > Shooting
Vanhel's Danse Macabre: Yes please!
Hellish Vigour: ok not particularly effective here, swap for IoN
Gaze of Nagash: Str 4 Magic Missile against T3 elves? Yep!!
Raise Dead: Yes! those 5 dudes I created give hard cover and waste an entire Unit's shooting. Even if they are only 5
Curse of Years: The only real fighting force you have has 40+ guys? Allow me to correct that.
Wind of Death: again, against T3 Elves... no need to boost the Wind, just send it flying in the way of Wild Riders.

Rod of Flaming Death: Stom moving Wild Riders, please. Don't make me burn you.

Ethereals are useless? No, my young apprentice. Ethereals are magnets. They attract arrows and are top priority targets against an army with not so many ranked-up units. Not even Hexwraiths will be worthless, you just have to learn how to play against W.E.

 

[The Sun King]

Curse of Years: The only real fighting force you have has 40+ guys? Allow me to correct that.

Hahaha, you're hilarious Demian! Awesome. And I completely agree with your assesment of Lore of Vampires, it's far more offensive against elves than most people assume.

 

[Seneschal]

My mistake, Waywatchers are 5+ per unit. I assumed 10 was the max since most lists field 2 units of 10. When you think about it, 10 skirmishers has a big footprint so that is the reason most people won't take anymore.

 

[Demian]

Don't know if this has been mentioned but...

Why not Wraith-walls against shooty elves? (in addition to other tactics, of course)


They place forests at will, or at least 1... so why not Garden of Morr?

I believe I'll face them this friday

 

[Seneschal]

Glade Guard and Scout units will have magical shots.

 

[Demian]

Glade Guard and Scout units will have magical shots.

Which become useless if 5 Cairn Wraiths are to stand amidst 40 zombies/skeletons who suffer their wrath. That's why Wraith-walls are made for, in the first place D:

Dryads, however... I believe those have magical close combat attacks, but arrows will not be an issue.

 

[Seneschal]

Bleh, I've got glade guard swimming around in my head so much that I mentioned the elves' magical shots instead of the forest spirits' magical attacks.
Even shooty elf armies will include a unit of some sort of spirits. The link I provided from Asrai.org awhile back (might be in another thread) shows a veteran player making use of a small dryad unit as troubleshooters for example. A lot of players write them off as weak now since their save is only a 6+ and they went down to strength 3 but they gained hatred (I think giving them ranks is a con myself but I haven't tried the branchwraith wall). Some are starting to throw in a unit of treekin into their elf lists to deal with certain enemies as well.

 

[Demian]

Yep, I knew we were focusing too much on the shooty part of the Elves.

As I said, I'll have a match against them this Friday, and since I'll go against... Lizardmen, Empire and some other stuff, I will play an all-comers list. I'm thinking about 1 Terrorgheist, 1 Black Coach (because I love it D:!), a group of Black Knights, and maybe some Vargheists. I hope we play at 2500, or I'll be forced to forsake something.

Their shooting phase is the obvious concern, yet I want to see how well we fare, specially against their mounted coven (don't remember the name, the one that can cast Lore of Life's spells), since I find them to be very interesting.

Also, if points allow, I'll try to squeeze in more Vargheists, as to make a strong unit... 4-6 if I'm able.

 

[Seneschal]

I will eat crow now and say that the Black Coach is a good buy if you are tailoring for Wood Elves. I suggested taking two or none in another thread for redundancy's sake but one would actually do fine. Their cost is what mainly worried me since it felt like you'd be handing them 200 VP's but after seeing how Dark Elf Cold One Chariots have fared against them (T5, 3+ armor, M7), I can say the Coach is a good investment.