Newbie needs help with a gameplan

[GrimDog]

Hey all,

I am getting back into WHFB after years of being off. I haven't played seriously since probably 4th-5th edition. I had a few games in 6th with my nurgle warriors but not enough to even get the rules down.

My group decided to start up and I have been wanting to play VC for years and since I like the new models I figured that would be the lot I threw in with.

To make a long story short I went on a trading/spending spree and ammassed a large quantity of VC models....but I need help on a plan of attack for building my force. Looking at this pile of sprues/metal is quite overwhelming.

I knew that I wanted a 18-20 man strong unit of grave guard with great weapons to use with the HoC so I built those up and 10 ghouls. I sifted through the swaths of great info on these boards and am trying to decide what to build next. I am guessing zombies and skellys since I will need those regardless since I can raise dead right? Or should I concentrate on ghouls?

Here is a list of what is sitting on my desk to be built:

Boxsets:

2 Battalions

20 Grave Guard

20 dire wolves

5 Blood Knights

10 Crypt Ghouls

1 Varghulf

1 Count Mannfred

8 Cairn Wraiths

1 Konrad von Carstein

1 Aristocratic Vampire

1 Winged Vampire Lord

1 Vlad von Carstein

10 black knights

 

[kia]

you've got a lot there

It might be a good idea to make a 500pts list assembled and painted and start playing to get the feel of the army. Then move onto 750pts , 1000pts, 1500pts and eventually 2000pts. Take it gradually, i know at least for me painting 2000pts of army all at once gives me a headache

A 500pts for me at the very least would be 2 core choices of 10 ghouls, a vampire, and a corpse cart which is easy to assemble and paint to get you started

 

[Baslakor]

Agree. Your first job will be to choose a vampire as general. Second you need 2 regiments of core units. If these are ghouls, zombies or skeletons is all up to you. All three are completly different types that have completly different goals in the game. Also always take large blocks. Because your troops are very scary you can autobreak your opponent if you have more then the enemy has.

Good luck!

And welcome to the forum!

 

[kia]

p.s actually my 1000pts list is 3 vampires, 2 unit of ghuols and a corpse cart......maybe i'm just being very very lazy painting

 

[Skorne]

I suggest making these 500 or so blocks part of what your army will contain when it is finished. The first 500 i would do the core choices and general, then with each block add a few units that you will want in your final list. For myself, my 500 point, 1000 point and 2000 point lists each have units that the others do not.

 

[kia]

there are 2 ways to go with Vampire counts, take large blocks to start with and get stuck fighting but have a weaker magic phase. Or have a really strong magic phase and start with min units with the aim of ION them to fighting strength on turn 1 and 2 before you engage combat

I always think going the magic heavy rout better cause it enhances what VC do best, magic. VC troops tend to be a bit more costly then they're actually worth cause you can raise them back agian and GW take that into account for the pts in VC troops. But quite a few ppl prefer to take combat ready troops to start with cause less risk of your opponent shutting down your magic phase. End of the day it's just a preference

 

[GrimDog]

We are planning on doing an escalation league, so I am shooting for 1k army then building 250 pt blocks from there.

I like the idea of going magic heavy with smaller units and ION'ing them up. That was what I was shooting for.

I will set my goal of painting my 2 vamps, 2 units of ghouls and a corpse cart for the first pass. That seems like a small and doable task lol.

Thanks for the help/encouragement.

 

[Ricw]

I've always found it easier to decide on the general of my army and build from there out. Even in 2000 point games you will often have a general who is about 20% of your total points. Getting the synergy out of him/her is a high priority. If you take Mannfred you end up with a very different set of options then a Carstein.. You will here a lot about casty vs. fighty vampires on the board. With a magic general you can shave points off some units with the expectation of filling them with summons. With a fighty lord your focus is on getting everyone in range as quickly as possible.

 

[kia]

However magic is not altogether reliable, Agianst a Dwarf army at small points or a tzenchien Deamon list would both be able to shut down your magic phase. Dark elfs, WoC and Lizardmen both have magic items which can mess with your magic phase. Cheap magic users in skaven or goblin form can stop a chunk of your ION whilst they outnumber you when you engage combat.

It's a risk, but no army list is invincible after all

 

[GrimDog]

ill likely be playing against high elves and dwarves mostly. So, maybe i dont want to be so magic focuses at the low point lvls?

---

How does this look as a first starter list.

I would run the vamp with the skellies and toss ION around getting my ghoul units up on turn 1-2 the corpse cart would be around to help for that. The black knights will provide the hitting power.


Vampire (1#, 195 Pts)
1 Vampire @ 195 Pts
General; Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Talisman of Protection
1 Helm of Commandment
1 Avatar of Death (Shield)
1 Lord of the Dead
1 Summon Ghouls

Necromancer (2#, 175 Pts)
1 Necromancer @ 175 Pts
Corpse Cart; Hand Weapon; Undead
1 Corpse Cart
1 Power Stone

Crypt Ghouls (10#, 88 Pts)
9 Crypt Ghouls @ 88 Pts
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead
1 Crypt Ghast

Crypt Ghouls (10#, 88 Pts)
9 Crypt Ghouls @ 88 Pts
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead
1 Crypt Ghast

Crypt Ghouls (10#, 88 Pts)
9 Crypt Ghouls @ 88 Pts
Causes Fear; Poisoned Attacks; Undead
1 Crypt Ghast

Grave Guard (12#, 186 Pts)
11 Grave Guard @ 186 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour; Undead
1 Seneschal
Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Heavy Armour

Skeleton Warriors (20#, 180 Pts)
19 Skeleton Warriors @ 180 Pts
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield; Undead
1 Skeleton Champion
Hand Weapon; Light Armour; Shield

Total Roster Cost: 1000

 

[kia]

i wouldn't go for both skeletons and ghouls at such a low point value. plus you then save a few points by only needing one master power

necromancer aren't as good as a vampire in most respects, so i would suggest swap it for a vampire. You have 4PP which in most case won't break 4DD of a dwarf army. Either go magic heavy or don't count on it at all

Grave Guard would work better in a bigger unit. When you go into combat you always want the +3 rank bonus and outnumber if you can. Outnumber might not be needed cause it's hard to get it vs skaven say

Try a few fell bats for those annoying Dwarf Cannons

 

[GrimDog]

Cool, I will drop the necro for another vamp. If I want to go magic heavy you think I should drop the GG and the skellys, pick up another vamp (for 3) and then get like rare choice like a varhulf?

Keep in mind, I really am not shooting for a WAAC list with this first army, just something that will help me get the mechanics of WHFB and basic tactics of playing VC down.

 

[Trentonator]

Personally, I'd take out the necro and Corpse Cart and add a vampire with dark acolyte and the flayed hauberk.
Then on your general, I'd take out avatar of death and lord of the dead and add Dark Acolyte. You won't need the talisman either since he should be in a bunker (get to that later) and he has the HoC which means you don't want him in combat, so add the black periapt.

Then, take out the skeletons, make your ghouls 15 each and add a 20 man zombie unit (to put your general in).

Overall I think that's about right points wise, and it'll give you a better magic base and a little more potent army.

 

[Skorne]

I played a 1500 point dwarf list, he had 7 dispell dice to my 5 power dice. I ran 3 vamps, 2 DA and one fighty. I was only able to cast one spell all game and that was curse of years. It did win me the game though, that and his organ gun misfiring on the first turn. I would suggest combat ready units against dwarves. Corpse Cart is a wonderful thing, don't drop it from the list. It doesnt always need a necro to go on it, its very useful on it's own.

 

[GrimDog]

Personally, I'd take out the necro and Corpse Cart and add a vampire with dark acolyte and the flayed hauberk.
Then on your general, I'd take out avatar of death and lord of the dead and add Dark Acolyte. You won't need the talisman either since he should be in a bunker (get to that later) and he has the HoC which means you don't want him in combat, so add the black periapt.

Then, take out the skeletons, make your ghouls 15 each and add a 20 man zombie unit (to put your general in).

Overall I think that's about right points wise, and it'll give you a better magic base and a little more potent army.

I have read alot of people frowning upon taking zombies in their lists, prefering to summon them onto the table. Do they make a reliable bunker? While discussing bunker, I am a bit unclear on it. A bunker is just a large gob of skellys or zombies to hide the general in right, is there more to it than that?

 

[kia]

pretty much that's what bunkers are. Characters can't join Zombies so they can't be a bunker unit. Usually ghouls or skellies make good bunker units depending on your army and it's master powers.

Master powers should be the ones for majority of your army

Zombies however make great cannon fodder shields when you deploy them in 1 rank across your army to stop a shooty army for a turn. 20 bodies is still 20 bodies even if they're zombies

 

[Master Vampire]

I have read alot of people frowning upon taking zombies in their lists, prefering to summon them onto the table. Do they make a reliable bunker? While discussing bunker, I am a bit unclear on it. A bunker is just a large gob of skellys or zombies to hide the general in right, is there more to it than that?

Actually, the bunker itself isn't large at all. You'll have a big block of Skeletons/Ghouls in front of the bunker. The bunker would be 10 in size. Either Ghouls or Skeletons. You'd place it right behind the big block, 1" apart. You put the character in the front rank of the unit sized 10 and in the middle.

 

[Bigpig]

Along with several of the other good points mentioned, your ghoul units are too small to start with. You really shouldn't rely on raising more than 1 unit up to a solid fighting strength unless you have a solid overpowering magic phase ( in which case 2 or maybe 3 units is ok ). Your example of getting your magic phase shut down exemplifies why.

Remember that each successful casting of IoN is only going to raise 3.5 models to the unit. Without a master power you are only going to get off half of your IoN casts. So assuming your opponent takes 1 caster at 1000pts, he has 3DD. If you have 5 power dice ( assuming you level raise one of your vamps with DA ), you will successfully cast about 3 IoNs per turn, half of these could be dispelled, leaving you to raising up only about 6 models per turn ( the math is intentionally sloppy here I know, but just doing it illuminate teh point ). This is only enough to buff up one unit. It gets even worse against dwarves or an enemy that has a scroll or two.

For a suggestion for a fun 1000pt list that is decently balanced

Casty Vamp, General
Helm of Commandment
Periapt
Dark Acolyte
Lord of the Dead
Put this guy in a bunker unit ( the unit of 10 skeletons ). Set the bunker unit behind the front line and keep him out of combat. Lend his WS to any unit nearby

Fighty Vamp
Sword of Battle
Dread Knight
Infinite Hatred
Put him in the GG unit or the larger Skeleton unit.

17 Skeleton Warriors
Standard Bearer, Champion
This unit starts out large enough that you don't need to raise it. If you have extra dice you can.

10 Skeleton Warriors

5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves
Dire wolves are a great and inexpensive unit. Use them as a sacrificial screen against shooting or send them around the flanks after war machines. You can also use them to march block or just set them behind the enemy line to autokill anyone that flees through them. Just dont expect them to win many combats, especially against rock hard dwarves or ASF elves.

14 Grave Guard Great Weapon, Standard bearer
This is your hammer unit. Add the vamp to it and make it a killer unit or run it solo to complement the vamp in skeleton unit.

Total Roster Cost: 840ish

This leaves you around 150pts to flesh out the core army as you like. Maybe 3 wraiths. These can be fun at 1000pts. You could also buff up the GG unit with a magic standard ( strigois or barrows ) and a few more models and add another skeleton unit. You could alternatively go for ghouls and the appropriate Master power instead of skeletons.

 

[GrimDog]

Along with several of the other good points mentioned, your ghoul units are too small to start with. You really shouldn't rely on raising more than 1 unit up to a solid fighting strength unless you have a solid overpowering magic phase ( in which case 2 or maybe 3 units is ok ). Your example of getting your magic phase shut down exemplifies why.

Remember that each successful casting of IoN is only going to raise 3.5 models to the unit. Without a master power you are only going to get off half of your IoN casts. So assuming your opponent takes 1 caster at 1000pts, he has 3DD. If you have 5 power dice ( assuming you level raise one of your vamps with DA ), you will successfully cast about 3 IoNs per turn, half of these could be dispelled, leaving you to raising up only about 6 models per turn ( the math is intentionally sloppy here I know, but just doing it illuminate teh point ). This is only enough to buff up one unit. It gets even worse against dwarves or an enemy that has a scroll or two.

For a suggestion for a fun 1000pt list that is decently balanced

Casty Vamp, General
Helm of Commandment
Periapt
Dark Acolyte
Lord of the Dead
Put this guy in a bunker unit ( the unit of 10 skeletons ). Set the bunker unit behind the front line and keep him out of combat. Lend his WS to any unit nearby

Fighty Vamp
Sword of Battle
Dread Knight
Infinite Hatred
Put him in the GG unit or the larger Skeleton unit.

17 Skeleton Warriors
Standard Bearer, Champion
This unit starts out large enough that you don't need to raise it. If you have extra dice you can.

10 Skeleton Warriors

5 Dire Wolves
5 Dire Wolves
Dire wolves are a great and inexpensive unit. Use them as a sacrificial screen against shooting or send them around the flanks after war machines. You can also use them to march block or just set them behind the enemy line to autokill anyone that flees through them. Just dont expect them to win many combats, especially against rock hard dwarves or ASF elves.

14 Grave Guard Great Weapon, Standard bearer
This is your hammer unit. Add the vamp to it and make it a killer unit or run it solo to complement the vamp in skeleton unit.

Total Roster Cost: 840ish

This leaves you around 150pts to flesh out the core army as you like. Maybe 3 wraiths. These can be fun at 1000pts. You could also buff up the GG unit with a magic standard ( strigois or barrows ) and a few more models and add another skeleton unit. You could alternatively go for ghouls and the appropriate Master power instead of skeletons.

I like this, it has a good mix of different unit types for me to try. I think I will give this a go.