Anyone try that ? Any success ? Worth it at all ? Trying to decide before I invest money in 40 ghouls...
Okkam's MIndrazor on a Ghoul Horde
- Thread starter Mishgun
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And the general consensus (sp?) is that the unit can use General's bubble for STR9 or 10 attacks ? Is it possible to use an Ld of a vampire hero in the unit ?
In my gaming group would say absolutely NOT. no ld bubble nor unit highest. use personal ld at model. if this is the case for you aswell, try it on ghouls or vargheists.
Mishgun said:
Yes, that's correct. You use the highest Ld available - be it from a character in the unit, or from the general's IP.
Kappu said:
Out of interest, why? That's certainly not what the rules say, so is there any particular reason you play it that way?
PrinceCharming
Black Knight
Yeah not much to discuss with the newest faq, IP is useable in conjunction with Mindrazor. 
Alot of tournaments play without this ruling however, so that might be the reason why Kappu's gaming group do it their way
Alot of tournaments play without this ruling however, so that might be the reason why Kappu's gaming group do it their way Some rules is taken from etc comp in my local tournament. Just image lizardmens. Around 500 skinks + slann. Does it ring a bell?
Kappu said:Some rules is taken from etc comp in my local tournament. Just image lizardmens. Around 500 skinks + slann. Does it ring a bell?
No, you're thinking of a Grey Seer.
In any case, I honestly don't see why that would result in a ban. I mean, for starters, that 2500pts of Skinks - this is hardly a cheap unit. :tongue:
Second, even if you deny them the ability to use IP for mindrazor, those skinks would still be S6. Objectively, I doubt there'd be much difference in their performance.
Third, these hardly seem like the worst offenders. DE Witch Elves, or even Spearmen get S8, plus high initiative, good WS and Hatred - and that's without IP.
Finally, I just don't see why mindrazor should only give a good bonus to those armies whose troops have high natural leadership.
alppikutka
Zombie
Could somebody point me to the page where it says that a unit can use leadership of joined character for mind razor. I get the IP rule as the wording specifically says that they use general's leadership. But as for regular characters giving leadership to whole unit, I find no such ruling. Only found that for tests you use the highest characteristic.
alppikutka
Zombie
Must be either my eyes, computer or just my brains but I can't find anything saying so. Could you quote it here? I'd appreciate it.
alppikutka
Zombie
I see that one, found it myself too but with what rule does this evolve into "Whole unit uses highest leadership as their strength"?
I mean, a unit is allowed to take a test with highest characteristic but this spell has nothing to do with tests. Saying a unit uses highest leadership as their strength if under effect of Okkam's is like saying that all units make their attacks with the highest strength present in the unit. But we all know better, each model uses their own strength - so in this case I'd say that if there is no inspiring presence involved, each model uses their leadership as strength.
IP rule however tells that all units in range may use general's leadership. Not a single restriction as to what for they may use it - in this case: the Mindrazor.
So I was looking for somebody to quote the rule which would make a character inside the unit act the same way. And I'm not even saying there isn't such a line, I'm just saying I failed to find it. Peace.
I mean, a unit is allowed to take a test with highest characteristic but this spell has nothing to do with tests. Saying a unit uses highest leadership as their strength if under effect of Okkam's is like saying that all units make their attacks with the highest strength present in the unit. But we all know better, each model uses their own strength - so in this case I'd say that if there is no inspiring presence involved, each model uses their leadership as strength.
IP rule however tells that all units in range may use general's leadership. Not a single restriction as to what for they may use it - in this case: the Mindrazor.
So I was looking for somebody to quote the rule which would make a character inside the unit act the same way. And I'm not even saying there isn't such a line, I'm just saying I failed to find it. Peace.
John Rainbow
Crypt Horror
Every tournament I've been to has played it as using the base Ld of the unit, I also thing this is the RAI approach.
I just went and reread this too. The spell states models use their leadership in place of strength for all close combat attacks. The FAQ does state unmodified leadership is the highest in the unit, and models use the unmodified leadership unless rules say. But mind razor does say that a model uses their leadership, not unmodified or the units leadership.
So, unless there is a FAQ or errata specifying that mind razor uses unmodified leadership, doesn't that mean it uses the model's own leadership as the spell states?
So, unless there is a FAQ or errata specifying that mind razor uses unmodified leadership, doesn't that mean it uses the model's own leadership as the spell states?
najo said:
All models will indeed use their own Ld, rather than the highest Ld in the unit.
But, because it doesn't say 'unmodified Ld', there's nothing preventing inspiring presence from working. So, if your general is nearby, the mindrazor unit can use his Ld in place of their own (as per Inspiring Presence).
After reading this I felt the need to check it out and I probably won't be using this. There are dozens of pages arguing both ways with well thought out debates either way. In past experience I've learned it's easiest to just do whatever is gonna cause the least amount of fuss.
If anyone is interested here's the link for a VERY long debate about this.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?273515-okkam-s-mindrazor-and-general-s-leadership
I'll ask my local GW store tomorrow but I think the ruling is gonna be against it. While there's nothing saying it doesn't work explicitly but it just feels like its breaking the spirit of the game.
If anyone is interested here's the link for a VERY long debate about this.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?273515-okkam-s-mindrazor-and-general-s-leadership
I'll ask my local GW store tomorrow but I think the ruling is gonna be against it. While there's nothing saying it doesn't work explicitly but it just feels like its breaking the spirit of the game.
It is RAW and i am getting sick of people saying it is debateable. It is not debateable it is just hardcore warhammer. Until a new FAQ is released all threads pertaining to this topic will be locked unless the poster rquests otherwise. Thank you
J-C: To War! Moderator
J-C: To War! Moderator
Woah there. I ain't stirring up trouble just stating my opinion and how I came to it.
It's extremely effective when used I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying my piece.
Feel free to read the link. That's how I came to my decision. I definitely don't think it's RAI. But that's just my opinion.
It's extremely effective when used I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying my piece.
Feel free to read the link. That's how I came to my decision. I definitely don't think it's RAI. But that's just my opinion.
Maybe I'm wrong but besides leadership tests what do you use IP for that is even half as powerful a use as the mindrazor combo?
Not saying its not RAW just saying I won't be using it. I'd let my opponent use it but I'd dispel that sucker quick.
If I knew of some other powerful IP uses I might consider using it though.
Not saying its not RAW just saying I won't be using it. I'd let my opponent use it but I'd dispel that sucker quick.
If I knew of some other powerful IP uses I might consider using it though.
